Dr Scott Barry Kaufman (SBK): “Your Trauma Doesn’t Define You”

Welcome back to the show. Today I am chatting with Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, SBK, author of the new book Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself and Rise to Your Full Potential. We get into some really powerful stuff about mindset and personal growth. But what really surprised me is how funny SPK is. We had a great time in this chat. I hope you enjoy this conversation as well. And if you do, please subscribe and share it with a friend. [Music] Dr. Kaufman, welcome to the show. I'm so glad to finally be on your show. I've seen it for a while. Oh, excellent. Excellent. Uh, where where do we find you this morning?

Oh, I'm in New York City. And I'm out here on the on the West Coast. And the best coast? No, no, no, it's not the best coast. I actually just moved from LA. I just moved from LA, so I have to change my mentality now. Now I'm on the west coast. Yeah. Okay. Okay. There there are many parts of the book Rise Above that I want to get into today. Um I really connected with the book on a personal level, but even more so, I feel like this is the book the American culture needs right now. addressing this pervasive victim mindset. And I thought a nice jumping off point would be the first sentence in the book.

You had a quote from Joan Rivers. Listen, I wish I could tell you it gets better, but it doesn't get better. You get better. You should have said it in a Joan Rivers voice. Are are you Do you have a good Joan Rivers impersonation? I can say it gets better. Get better. You get better. That's my best. Uh John River, I like it. I like it. Why was Why was that quote inspirational to you or encapsulate what was coming in the book? Well, so much um and many other people have said it in lots of different ways, famous philosophers, famous psychologists, um thinkers. Um, not that Joan Rivers is not any of those things, but but just the general um idea that we can blame all the world for our problems, you know, and it's everyone else's fault.

Um, and and then, you know, things don't change and we lose all sense of empowerment over that. Or we can really look within at all the ways that we can show up in this world regardless of the world being on fire. And the things we can tap into within ourselves like the deep levels of resiliency that we have that we all have that we often we don't even know we have until we actually try until we actually get tested um and we actually realize that we can overcome things. Um so I it just it's really resonant with me that quote it's really resonant. So what is this victim mindset and why is it a problem?

Well, when you have a victim mindset, you tend to blame all your problems on external circumstances. Whether it's that life dealt you a bad hand or that a person or even an entire group of people have it in for you and are holding you back. You believe you don't need to take responsibility for your actions or reactions because of past trauma. And you can't stop ruminating about your past victimization. you fixate so much on how to enact revenge that you rarely think about solutions or ways of moving forward with your life with hope and purpose. At the end of the day, um I want all people to realize that they allowed they're allowed to have a future even if their past sucked.

You know, like we we forget that sometimes we get it caught up in our ruts and we get caught up in our loops as they as they say on Westworld. Yes. You remember that, Nick? You remember that? I do. We all get caught up in our loops. Yeah. In our in our loops. Yeah. I feel like in the book there is this a little bit of a old school mentality that points back towards agency and personal responsibility. And I don't mean to take this in any sort of political direction because I feel like in the old days, left and right espoused the ideals of personal responsibility. But now they both suck. Yes. Yes.

Agree. Now they're both mired in victimhood. Yeah. They're fighting each other over who's the biggest victim. It's like the comp the the victimhood Olympics over here in American politics. Yes. And social media reflects that as well on a personal level. Yeah, that's true. That's true. How and how do you see the role of social media in this victim mindset that is permeating throughout society? I think it rewards it. It incentivizes it. Um I had this conversation recently with Jonathan Height on my podcast. He is like the social antisocial media guy. That's his thing, right? Yeah. He wrote author of the anxious generation.

That's right. That's Have you had him on your podcast yet? I have not. I would love to talk to him. Um cool. Cool. Well, I'm happy to make an intro. Um Oh, that would be fantastic. But yeah, we we recently had a conversation about how his work intersects with my work and um we concluded there's a big intersection. Um the the um social media landscape now is one that really gets right you rise right to the top of the algorithms if your uh identity is a victimhood identity. Um, you know, it's it's you don't rise, you know, you don't get the most attention if you're talking about how happy you are today.

You know, if you're just like, "Hey everyone, I just want to let everyone know that I'm feeling really good today. Um, I really have a gratitude for God, for life, you know, it's like that ain't getting attention." Right. Right. I I can I can attest to that. And what's interesting about the algorithm, I mean, I I have seen certain accounts get traction with talking about whatever is holding them back and what they've been a victim of. And when they try to switch gears, they're captured by the by the audience, I guess, partially, and and really by the algorithm because they they suddenly the the account doesn't reach more people when they talk about overcoming that thing.

And as soon as they go back to, yeah, I'm stuck here and this is why I'm stuck and this is why everything's bad. It's like boom, boom, boom, the follower count keeps going up. It's very seductive. I mean, there's something deep in human nature that uh like I don't blame them, you know? I I feel the seductive siren of of, you know, wow, I could probably take my follower count to the next level if I complained more. But it's like or if I created more controversies or I found you know some group to to make I've decided is my that's you know I'm the savior of my own inroup you know against whatever insert exile group that's what gets you the followers and I get that and I understand that and there is a you know sometimes I you know I I hear that siren call uh to go on you know I'm bored let's say I'm bored I'm having a you know boring day I'm like let's rile things up a little bit but if I if I go on.

But I I tend to suppress those urges because um it's going to sound really corny, but I have higher values. I mean, and I don't mean that in like a moral superior sort of way. I don't think I'm morally superior to others, but I I think it's just in a way that um maybe some people maybe I am morally superior to some people. I will admit that there's some people like, "Oh my god, I don't think this present any moral compass at all." But um um if you want to name some names, I think the algorithm would love that. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Of course. No, no, no, no, no. Well, I have no I have no filter, so I have no problem with that.

But I just can't I can't think of put on the spot. I suddenly can't think of any anyone uh other than Trump. But oh my god, I just don't I just go there. Um there there it goes. The cans the can of worms is open. God. Oh my god. But Biden But Biden. Okay, fair enough. He was he was out in left field as well, not knowing what day it was. But look, here's the thing. Okay, folks. Here's the thing. We all have higher values. We all do. Um, and we we don't tap into we're not tapping into like the future we really want to live in or the agency we really want to have when we feel that siren call to get attention and to get rewards and to get, you know, there's something so deeply tribal within all of us that any opportunity we can get to be more tribal is very alluring.

It's so deepseated into our DNA, you know, from I mean, you think about, let me just think right now, you know, if we had social media back in the Savannah Desert when there were small bands, it'd be even much much much much worse because reputation, I mean, it caused you could you could die if you didn't have the back of your clan. It kept us alive. Yeah. Yeah. Your tribe really mattered when, you know, you got like [ __ ] lions, you know. coming into your tent being like, "What's up?" You know, like why is there a lion in my tent right now? I need help. Yeah. Yeah. You know, do you know what I mean?

So, it's so deeply seated into our DNA and but we still have those minds in, you know, we think we're so evolved. Yeah. There's a lot of monkey stuff uh left over. I love the way you said that. We're still Yeah, we're still apes, aren't we? Am I allowed to say that? Humans are Humans are apes. I think that's technically true. You mentioned, I think it was on Sam Harris if I'm not mistaken, but this talking about college essays and the victim mindset that pervades college essays. And I thought there this was an interesting anecdote that that you might find fascinating. I own a business that does college consulting and test preparation and anything related to to college.

Um, and I recently saw this young lady. I thought it encapsulated a trend I have been seeing in uh California in particular. And I love California, born and bred here. Um, I I I love this state. Let me start with that. But this young lady, she wrote this great essay. She's young, inserted herself into a world that was dominated by grown men in a sporting sense. Uh she was a referee in this sense and found herself as a senior in high school being yelled at and cursed at by grown men in a very competitive situation and she really shrunk from the situation and then thought about it and said, you know, that's not who I want to be and then rose to the occasion and said, hey, I belong here.

I can do this. they didn't put me in this arena accidentally and and then really overcame that and succeeded and ended up refereeing some Olympic trials. I mean, it was I just thought it was this wonderful essay. And I noticed in different pockets of the country, especially in Texas, she got in just about everywhere she applied. And in California, she was denied all over the place. And it it it strikes me as as being evidence of this trend I've seen in a lot of colleges in California. I feel like especially the UC's right now. Like they want to be the savior to students who have had a lot of obstacles.

Whereas there are other schools that will really reward, hey, we want you to save yourself. And that those are the kids we want. And I feel like one one message is a little more empowering than the other or these decisions are more empowering than the other. And I just I just wanted to get your two cents on that since you're involved in higher education as well. Well, I have a lot of thoughts on it. Um, you know, I'm very interested in education. Um, I wrote a book called Unifted. I think we could have a whole chat about, you know, that that that whole book was about how we need to change the education system and how we measure intelligence and and the role of standardized tests.

And that's in my past life. that was all I that was my obsession was that topic. So, you know, so we could probably go on and on about that. Um the I lived in California for for 5 years. Um couldn't couldn't get a professor job anywhere. Um, and it's interesting in a lot of the interviews and applications it was like, okay, how are you going to teach Latino students or Latinx Latin X, you know, that was the focus was like, you know, like um uh because there is there's such a growing population, right, of of uh Latino students in in California. So, it it's reasonable to ask, you know, like how are you going to, you know, are you going to learn Spanish?

I have to be the one. they don't have to learn English, but I had to be the one who learned Spanish, right? But okay, but okay, that's fine. That's fine. Um, you can argue the merits, you can argue the the the benefits and disadvantages of that, but um I did I I have just have I have noticed that when you're applying for um for colleges in a lot of universities back in the day, in my day, it was that you overcame the challenges. That was the thing that like got you into the college. But now it's it's not how you've overcome. It's it's it's who is suffering the most. Who is the biggest victimhood identity?

Um and we have to make sure that we get those people in because we'll look really good as a university because we we look like saviors as a university. Look at us, you know, let's virtue signal that we got this person who had this trauma and then we, you know, now our university, you know, pretty soon universities are are going to brag. They're like our UN Harvard. Here you It used to be Harvard's SAT scores they used to brag about. Now it'd be like here at Harvard we have 75% of students who are tra traumatized by life. Yes. As like that's a great thing. Isn't this amazing? You know, we have more students who have trauma than your students have trauma, you know, and it's uh I love your Harvard voice by the way.

Oh, really? Oh, really? We at Harvard. We at Harvard. I turned down Harvard, by the way. I just want to say that. Um, fantastic. I chose Yale. I chose that. I didn't really feel like I fit in anyway there either. But um yeah something has really shifted in uh what we reward and but I think it becomes like a competition you know like once you know universities decide like just in the culture decides that this is the thing that we should be rewarding and incentivizing it it becomes you know all the colleges now start competing against this um and they and they leave like this person you just mentioned sounds very capable and uh and awesome quite frankly.

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I I would like her to have some opportunities in in every state she wants to live in, especially if it's this one I happen to be in. I want capable people uh excited to be here. And you mentioned Ungifted, and I know we're here to talk about Rise Above. Did you do you ever did you read Ungifted? Do you have Oh, yeah. That's that was the book that turned me on to your working. Someone someone said, "Hey, you know, you're working with kids on these standardized tests. here's the here's the book to show you everything that's I mean not that I needed convincing I knew there were all kinds of problems with standardized tests but I loved the book and I think for anybody that hasn't read it if you would share that story of your path from where you started in school to where you ended up your you ended up at Yale um but where you started I think it's very insightful into your viewpoint on the world and and has a lot of the roots on the importance of taking on this empowerment mindset in your latest book.

Yeah, there are a lot of threads. Um, so the new book really does have its origin story. Um, I was in special ed for uh up until 9th grade in high school for an auditory learning disability, central auditory processing disability. By the way, I found out my brother man David Blaine has auditory processing disability as well. the magician, David Blaine, and uh that's so cool. Yeah, maybe I wonder I'm really into magic right now as well. So, I I feel like uh I wonder if there's some connection there between disabled people and their interest in magic. But anyway, that's I heard him mention that recently on Doc Shepard's uh podcast.

Uh um what what's that podcast called? The arm armchair expert. Yeah, that's for armchair expert. Yeah. So, um yeah, I had this disability and uh a lot of people thought I was really stupid. I was bullied a lot and I internally felt like I was uh intelligent like I was like my own inner experience wasn't as disabled even though everyone else on the outside was treating me like that. Um in ninth grade a special ed teacher who I had never seen before she took me aside and she said you know what are you still doing here? She saw something in me that I don't think other people saw. Well they certainly didn't see.

And uh she was just coming for the main teacher. Isn't that crazy? just one day she she saw me with fresh eyes. It's amazing all these other people just didn't have fresh eyes to see me and I was like, "Yeah, what am I doing here?" And it really inspired me in my own head to like take myself out because I realized in that moment no one's coming to save me. I mean, she she didn't say you should get out of special ed, but she was just like, you know, she was like questioning like, you know, what's your disability? Why are you here? and and and and in my own head, it really inspired me to like say, you know what, like let me get out of this thing.

And um and they had to set up a whole meeting with the school psychologist and the administrator. It was a whole real big deal. Um where the student the student himself is like, I'm breaking out, you know, and uh that never heard of such a situation before in the school district, you know, maybe in the history of the world. uh the special ed kid, you know, it's usually the parent that can get them out, but usually the kid themsel isn't like, you know what, I I'm done with special ed. Yeah. Yeah. You don't see that that often. And I don't know why not. By the way, I don't know why kids why we why we they have so so much word helplessness.

That's another another question, another issue. I see it so much amongst my own students at Colombia. Um there's this word helplessness. Oh, I can't, you know, I have so many classes. I can't handle this essay this week. It's like, no, I I think you can handle it. I think you can, you know. Anyway, so I I never wanted that, you know, and there was something within me, a deep fire that that uh that set off this passion to just discover what I was capable of in life and to see if I could learn, if I could take regular classes. And uh realized I really loved learning. I, you know, it was the best thing for me to take myself out.

I I I I realized I had potentials I never realized I knew. I I I was in the choir. Oh, singing, you know, singing choir [ __ ] Decreas all that [ __ ] And then I also did and then I I did Westside Story. I I Westside Story and I quit quit Westside Story because the dancing was way too crazy. Um Okay. I was a jet. I was a jet and uh that dancing was nuts. But um I became a Latin scholar. That was something. And then uh and then I I played cello. Yeah. So I won I ended up winning the all the music department award uh which was amazing. It was amazing. I was uh in Porgi best porgi and best I literally went up and started singing you know and then I sat down and continued playing cello.

It was like wow you know like I can I have multiple talents. I never knew I had I think everyone has multiple talents they don't know they had they have and and all of this was lying latent when you're in the special education classes. Oh 100%. I did I had no idea what was within me. I had no idea. All all I knew I did I did go underground. I became a good computer hacker when I was 13 uh in special ed. Um that was the only thing that gave me a sense of efficacy. And just to bring it full circle, I mean you are a professor at an Ivy League college. You've gone on PhD. I mean just to really put a fine point on how much we are all of us able to overcome the obstacles in front of us and just realizing that we can is a powerful step.

And one thing I really like about the book is that it's chalk full of little mindset reframes and they're framed different ways or little exercises to just help people get over that that initial hurdle of kind of an eitheror mindset to a yes and mindset. That's exactly that you you nailed it. You nailed it. Yeah. It's much more empowering to yes and your life. Yeah. You you talked about neuroticism and that having almost like a dual-edged sword, right? There are there's there's some good qualities associated with neuroticism and then some bad qualities and taking some steps to go, well, this is who I am, but I'm I want to deemphasize the the negative parts of it and and retain the the upside.

Yeah. But I I should I should elaborate a little more on what a yes and mindset is. Okay. um for people and in in in improv it's you take whatever has happened to you, you know, whatever the other person says, you know, like um Nick's like, "Oh, I love apples, you know, and then the like, yes, and you put some whipped cream on the apple and it's even better." I don't know, whatever it is. Um and so you you take whatever has been given to you and you and you add to it, enhance it. Um you keep the thing going, you keep the flow of of of it going, right? You never disagree. You never if you said you have an apple, I don't just turn around and say, "No, it's a cupcake." Yeah.

I mean, it shuts it down. It shut it's not advancing anything. And so in just like life, you can be like, "Yes, this terrible horrible thing happened to me." We aren't We should I feel like I need to say this right off the bat with like every interview. Um you a victim mindset is what my book's about. You can have be have been victimized legitimately, of course, and and not have a victim mindset or have a victim mindset. You could have not have been victimized and have a victim mindset, you know. Um and uh we're seeing a lot of that, you know, in in politics right now, you know, like the slightest thing, you know, it's like, you know, like how dare you?

I am victim. I am a victim of this situation. Yes. and says, "Yes, a terrible thing happened to you and um given it it happened, you know, what can you do to improv that well and I got this and I can move forward with my life and you know there's there's more to me than than what happened to me." So you yes end it and uh I think it's something so empowering about that. So I wanted to really mention that. I've been really trying to stay away from the phrase double click on that because I used that phrase in my Sam Harris interview and there are literally threads about this about how annoying annoying it is when I say it.

Let's double click on this. So I almost said it. I almost said it but I didn't. Oh, Dr. Kaufman never read the comments. Just got to let that be its own thing. Yeah. Bill Mayer once said, "Yeah, like I definitely don't read the comments cuz I'm not a masochist." Right. Right. Well, and I and to be clear, like the book does not downplay severe trauma whatsoever. It's not denying that bad things happen to people at all. It's it's just more concerned with what do we do next? What do we do now? Whether that has happened or not given this is what has happened or even given this is the way you are. And I will segue into your other question from that.

Um, you know, for most of my life I've been neurotic as [ __ ] Like, let's be honest. Like, you know, I have a neurotic Jewish mother who's who's like off the charts, you know, telling me I should be worrying about everything, you know, like even things I never even thought about, you know, she's like, "You should worry about that." It's like, I wasn't worried about it, but okay. Like, now I'm worried about everything. Thanks, Mom. You know, I think that um recognizing that that is has been a strong part of my neuro my uh personality structure and being honest with myself. Um I've come a long way honestly in the past seven eight years.

Um I don't think I'm that neurotic anymore actually. Interestingly enough, I you know just to speaking about the power of personality change and and how we really can change our personality. I mean, I might have, you know, I I was one of the most neurotic people on this planet. And I think I right now I'm pretty chill. Now, marijuana does help, I should say. Um, you know, in lowering your neuroticism levels. Um, you know, um, don't do drugs, kids. Uh, but, you know, I don't I don't I know all the people listening from your test test prep company are like, "Cut the cut this interview." That's right.

Cut. the the board right now is just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We got to edit that." Yeah. And and feel free to edit out. I'm I'm No, no, it's it's legal now. I And I think it's I'm raw. I'm raw and uncensored SBK, but feel free on your end to uh to to Yes. to cancel me. But um uh or censor me. Wowing, you know, winger nutism is very possible. Um as long as you're not a victim to it. as long as you don't um you don't identify with the worst parts of yourselves and and actually take you know a lot of neurotic people have a very high sensitivity and harnessing that sensitivity for creativity um for connection for love deep love is is all very possible it's very possible is you don't have to view yourself as a victim of it there are a lot of people who are like oh I'm so such a highly sensitive person I'm such a highly sensitive person.

I'm going to do a Cartman Cartman person as a person. I I can't don't like like tiptoe around me, you know, like you know, whatever I do, you know, and and and you and people know, you know, they tiptoe around certain people and they know that they're very so fragile, you know, like they're so sensitive, you know, you don't have any real conversations. And I don't want ever want to be like that. I want people to feel empowered to have real conversations with me, to disagree with me. I don't want anyone to feel like they're walking in eggshells around me because I'm a highly sensitive person. I don't want that.

And so it just I guess just going back always back to my personal story, it always boggles my mind people that seem to want you know the crutches and uh I don't get that. I don't get that mentality. Why do you want the crutches? So, a a moment that really struck me on a on a personal level uh is is when you discussed the highly sensitive person. Um because as a as a kid, I mean, especially elementary school. I definitely if that phrase had existed back then would have been labeled a highly sensitive person. And I remember somewhere around middle school deciding that I didn't want to be one, I wanted to understand it, and two, I didn't want to be held back by it anymore.

And I, you tell me if this tracks for you, but I I've come to think of being sensitive. I mean, usually when we use it in the the popular vernacular, it's it just is code for, you know, having big feelings and getting your feelings hurt. And yet I think what being sensitive actually is uh is much more along the lines of the there's a book called Quiet. Um I forget the author's name, but can she Yes. Yes. There we go. And and she defined it as being much more like a sensitive instrument and being sensitive to the emotional landscape outside of yourself and inside yourself. And it's just it's almost like how a Geiger counter can measure radiation.

If there's too much stimuli, the the instrument is is overloaded and then uh you are experiencing those big feelings, but that's that's more of a symptom of what's going on rather than the root cause of what it means to be sensitive. And and like you said, that sensitive person can also be highly attuned to beauty and what is interesting in the world and connecting with people. And I think someone who is sensitive is makes for the best listener you can ever find. Um because one of the one of the highest compliments ever paid to me was a a young lady. She said she said, "I I like talking to you because you hear the things I say, but you also are somehow hearing the things that that I didn't say." Women love that.

Women love that. Women love when you read when you can read their mind. But yeah, sorry, that's a whole different topic. I wanted to get your two cents just on on that definition around highly sensitive person and if that tracks for you. It does 100% it tracks and I um you know being able to take a step back and being able to reflect and see nuances and things super conducive to intellectualism as well as obviously creativity. Um, I think that there unfortunately a lot of males get uh uh bullied. Highly sensitive males get bullied when they're younger. Um, there's a sort of social stigma against being a highly sensitive male.

And I really want to break that down. I really want to get rid of that. Um, you know, there's no dichotomy between between being sensitive and strong. Um, do you know do you know Chris Williamson, the bro podcaster? Yes. Uh, maybe he wouldn't describe himself as the bro podcaster, but he's he's, you know, he's very buff and masculine looking. And I was just on his podcast yesterday and I asked him fantastic. Yeah, he's a good guy. He's a really good guy. And I was like, you know, Chris, like I feel like he's unfairly labeled as the bro podcast. 100% 100%. And and I was like, you know, cuz I know I know him.

I've hung out with him, you know, personally. And I was like, you know, wouldn't you say yourself a highly sensitive person? He's like he's like, absolutely. I am definitely a highly sensitive person. And I was like, we need more people like you to um you know, men who lift weights to say to say that it's okay being a highly sensitive person. So yeah, like I think that we we really need to break down. That's a big stigma I want to break down. and to speak to Chris Williamson. I mean, I think he's a great example because he is an excellent conversationalist and interviewer. And a lot of that just comes back to qualities that we would label as a highly sensitive person.

Um, because he's picking up on those little nuances when he's talking to someone. It's true. I really liked your story about the girl Eddie I think was her name. And if I I copied and pasted it if you don't remember the story. Um I remember the story. But if if you if you if you want to share the story real quick. Oh, I remember the story. You saying even you saying Maddie brings back feelings, you know, within how many years later? 40 39 years later. Yeah. Still brings back feelings. Well, it's very it's mortifying, you know, when you're a young kid and you you like you you feel like you're in love with someone and uh but I never talked to her and I waited till the last day of camp and uh and then just blurted out, "I love you, Eddie." You know, and all her and all her friends, you know, really laughed at me.

Um and uh and that was mortifying and humiliating. But I think that like the answer to that is not to to end up hating women like that's become an incel. Yeah. No. No, incelss are such a great example of a victim mindset, by the way. And I had a whole I had a much longer section of of that chapter and they're like, "Scott, you don't want to write a whole like turning into a whole book about incels." So, I had to seriously condense that section, but I felt like I felt like they were such a great they were such a great example of a lot of the principles and cognitive distortions I'm talking about in the in the book.

You know, we all have experiences where we're rejected by things where we're, you know, I mean, you can't expect life, you know, you can't expect everyone to like you. You can't expect, you know, also you got to take responsibility for things, you know, like it's it was absurd, you know, to think that like someone would respond favorably to I love you when you've never talked to them before. I mean, it's like I mean, when you're a 10-year-old kid, maybe that's a reasonable assumption, but not when you become a damn adult. Yeah. When I was reading your book and that story about Eddie, I mean, I identify with that.

I had moments like that when I was young as well. Oh yeah, no doubt. Um, but actively worked again to go, okay, how do I how do I minimize the downsides of being highly sensitive and and maximize the upsides? And the while I'm reading your book, I mean, it sparked a memory that something I hadn't thought about in a long time, but I remember the exact moment when I was like, I've really wow, I've really come a long ways. And it was in a moment of rejection, which is kind of the point of the story. So, it was senior year and there was a young lady who was also a senior. We're about to graduate. I'm going to call her high school.

High school. Yeah. Uh I'm going to call her Allison um as a as a code name. and and was one of those situations where Allison was had always been very pretty and kind and smart and kind of had it all going on, but all of a sudden it was like the braces came off and she matured and suddenly she's a a knockout and didn't quite know it yet. Um, and I managed to in a with a nice um yearbook thing that I wrote where I just said, "Hey, I you know, we've been in uh theater class together and uh I've secretly had a crush on you for the last month. Let's go hang out sometime." And left my phone number and she calls me the next day, says yes.

We graduate and we go out one night. Goes just incredibly well, right? We go out to dinner, go to a party, we end up making out in a somebody's uh empty bedroom, and then she has to leave for a month and and I'm like, I've got the day she's come back, like circled on the calendar. It went from crush to full-on infatuation. I'm really excited. And she comes back and a mutual friend of ours, the one who initially introduced us, um he is playing in this huge state level soccer game and I said, "Hey, why don't we go to the game?" and there's another party that night. We'll we'll go to the party afterwards and go see where the night takes us.

And she says, "Yes." But then I get a call from the mutual friend uh a few hours later and he goes, he's like, "Hey, uh I did talk to Allison." And he's like, you know, she was gone for a month traveling with her parents and doing that internship. Like she met this guy that's going to be going to the same college as her. Like she's really excited about that. she doesn't want you to get the wrong idea and doesn't want to, you know, get your hopes up and is now like maybe she's having mixed feelings about this and my heart just sunk, right? I mean, it was just like of course, h this is this is brutal.

I was so pumped about this situation, but took a moment and thought, okay, you know what? Cuz I found the key to overcoming the highly sensitive thing was going, it's not about me. Like it is do not be overly involved in yourself. And I thought, what what's actually, if I can just calm down for a second, what's going on with her right now? Yeah, she met some guy and they're going to the same school. And what am I getting so excited about? She's leaving for NYU in a few weeks anyways. I'm staying in California. And that's okay. She didn't have any obligation to me. And she met some nice guy. And she probably just doesn't want to feel like an [ __ ] telling me that to my face.

So, I go ahead and I go to pick her up and I said, and I'm tuned into where she's at and I had an idea of what I would say to her. She gets in the car before we leave. I like took her hand and I said, "Hey, I I heard what you said to our our mutual friend." And he he told me how you're just so excited like to be with me and want to be my girlfriend now, and I just want to let you know I feel the same way. And she's sitting there like with her mouth open. And then I just laughed out loud and she laughed and I was just like, "It's okay. He told me everything you said. Like there's no there's no hard feelings whatsoever.

And we went and we still went to the game. We had a great time. Oh. And there was no need to make it awkward or bad in any way. And I just I remember that whole moment where it was coming together. I was like, man, I've really come a long ways in that this stuff doesn't have to matter. I appreciate it. It um you're you're a bit of a of a heartthrob uh in in high school, huh? Your story was obviously different than my story. You did make out with this one girl. So this is what I'm extracting from this story. In my mindset, I was always struggling with those situations. I was so afraid somebody might reject me.

I'd I'd reject him first or run away from the situation. I was sabotaging myself. A lot of guys do that. They become Mr. Cool, you know, Mr. Cool. M the no more Mr. Nice Guy, you know, like like they may they may experience the kind of situation you experience then then like, you know, put on the leather jacket and be like no more Mr. No more Mr. nice guy, you know, um as it's a very common defense mechanism for for a male in this situation. Um and and not a useful one at all. Not a useful one. I do understand the point of your story. I was but I was just thinking like, yeah, Nick, like I mean you you still were successful in in many ways throughout that story.

Is that even rejection? You know, it could have been. I could have taken it hard. I could have just been like uh I've been rejected. I'm walking away from this situation to save myself from the embarrassment. And by embracing the going, this doesn't have to be embarrassing. This can just be something we laugh about. Everything's okay. Everything's even better because of the rejection. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you did you had you you embraced an empowerment mindset and you did the right thing. You did the there's just simply the right thing to do in certain situations. I feel like it's not even up for debate.

you were you did the constructive the mo is the most constructive thing you could have done and you did that um because you also never know here's the here's the thing she could have been feeling pressured and have made up the story about meeting someone from NYU and and and and maybe you could have been in a situation where where once you lessened that pressure on her she may have been all over you know so I I mean I've I've encountered situations like that quite frankly you know where it's like you my overinter interest in someone maybe like they're like feeling a little too much pressure so then they you know they don't want to hurt my feelings so they'll make something up like uh I just don't think I'm ready to date anymore or whatever whatever [ __ ] and you're like but but but you you know I 100% you know relieve any pressure you know because like I'm not that's you know it's like that's the right thing to do and they become interested in me again so Right.

Right. You never know. It doesn't mean game over just because you know, you know, uh, and you had this momentary setback. It doesn't have to be, as the kids say these days, traumatizing. And that was something I did want to ask you about like if we bled that word of all meaning whatsoever. Yeah. I'm trying to think of if it has any meaning anymore. Yeah. because so many different situations are uh considered a case of trauma now and it used to mean something deeply bad, right? I mean it that left a lasting negative mark on the psyche and I it it's almost like it started out I'm sure someone joked about how a homework assignment was traumatizing.

Um, but now it's used to describe literal situations where people think they are are traumatized by a homework assignment or traumatized by a passing comment. And what word where where does where does that leave someone when they actually experience real deep trauma? I mean, of course, there are levels to it, but there has to be a a minimum level uh I feel like to qualify for that word, and we we kind of lost that. No, you're absolutely right. Um, it has a clinical meaning. I mean, I think Tik Tok therapy is a thing now where they kids are adopting therapy language to describe every situation. Like everyone that you don't like now is a narcissistic psychopath, sociopath, and you know, just cuz you don't like them, you know, they're they're a narciss narcissistic sociopath.

And um, you know, everyone's really become really good at diagnosing everyone else. you know, amateur diagnosis and um and everyone uh to be able to take any of your pain, anxiety, whatever, and you're trying to to me it's victim mindset. You're trying to find something to blame and so you blame it on trauma. This nebulous term that could mean anything, but it relieves you of any responsibility at all. You know, it's like it was trauma. You know, I was an [ __ ] in this situation. I know I was an [ __ ] but you don't know what my childhood was like. You know, you hear that all the time, you know?

Um, I don't know if even the worst childhood imaginable justifies being an [ __ ] You mentioned narcissism there, and I thought there there's a really interesting term in the book, the vulnerable narcissist, which I had not ever heard before. Did you coin that term? Yeah, it's funny. I I did not coin that term, but I've done a lot of research on it and uh did a wrote a big paper uh in in a in a clinical psychology journal arguing that we need to view it as a source of personality variation, not as uh either you have it or you don't. Either we diagnose you with it or not, but that it's a trait that all of us in the general population, we vary on to some degree.

Yeah. So, I've I've really I've really been a one of its one of its biggest uh what's the word? I'm a fan a fan of vulnerable narcissism research and seeing it on a spectrum rather than a eitheror. Sure. And it's also a dynamic mindset that we all can go in and out of throughout the course of our day. Um well, a lot of people think about narcissism. When I say the word nar, they think of um Trump, right? They think of the sort of chest thumping I'm the greatest, you know, I'm the best or you think DJ Khaled. Uh, yes. Um, we're the best. But, but, um, all is win win win. Exactly. No offense to DJ Khaled.

Big fan of DJ Cleed, but that song um is an example of this. And but I think that uh people people aren't aware that there's a there's a choir form of narcissism that researchers have been studying where you don't feel entitled to special privileges because you think you're the best in winning. Far from it. Far from it. You think you're entitled to special privileges because you've suffered. Um or maybe you are fragile more fra you're the most fragile person on the planet. So you deserve special privileges. Um so it's a different type of entitlement. The entitlement is a thing that that that that is core to all forms of narcissism, but there are actually different types of narcissism.

There's also communal narcissism, which I talk about in my book a little bit, where you think you're entitled to special things because you're the best at helping others. And that's an interesting one. That's an interesting one. After all I've done for you, you know, like scaled up to society at large. After all I've done for the world, right? Do you know what I mean, Nick? Yeah, I do. I do. and that the world owes you something back for all the good that you've that you've perceived yourself to have done. The best at helping people. Yeah, I'm the best. Well, I think anytime you start to think that the world owes you anything, you're getting off track.

Good point. Really good point, Nick. Really good point. Well, Dr. Kaufman, I know we've got to we need to get you out of here by noon, East Coast time, which uh is is steadily approaching here. it has been such an absolute pleasure to talk to you today and you're so uh funny and easy to talk to even though this is the first the first time. Um and I you know I only have people on where I enjoy their their book, their work, but I I got to tell you I mean I I haven't been this excited about a book since Seth Goden came on. Um, and and if if you know me, that's a massive compliment. Um, because he is he's one of my he's great favorite authors.

And I really I really think you've written a book that is we can never control if the book sells 50,000 copies or 5 million copies, but I think it is worthy of being picked up by the zeitgeist. And that's all you can control, right? I I think you've written a book that is that matches the time that we're in and there's a lot of people that could really benefit from reading this book. And even if you don't see yourself as suffering from a victim mindset, we all know people that are are dealing with this. And this will give uh those people tools and language to better understand our fellow human beings and and we can all help each other along our various paths.

I love it. Um, I really enjoyed talking to you. I'm honored um that you're this excited. Um, I saw your Instagram u post about it. Um, feel free to censor my cuss words. Um, but it was a real a real delight uh real delight to chat with you and yeah, thanks thanks so much for the support. And before you go, uh, where can people find you online and um, and all of that that good stuff if they want to learn more? I'll give I'll give you my Yeah, my Only Fans account. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. We won't give that information, but um No, my uh I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Don't have it on me, but scottycoffman.com.

Okay, you can go to scottberrycoffman.com. Um and uh on there, you know, I have access to my uh the psychology podcast. Um also the center for human potential. I offer trainings and teachings for the general public as well as coaches. I'm really I'm really interested in I created a form of coaching called self-actualization coaching and we've been training coaches on how to take their coaching to the next level. Yeah. Thanks, Nick. Awesome. And we'll link to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much and have an excellent day, Dr. Kaufman. Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions, don't accept the status quo, and be curious.

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