How to Future-Proof Your Kid in the Age of AI (CEO Ryan Kiick)

I have started to use AI for me at least effective way is saying not about the power of its answers but instead the power of its questions. AI is changing school, college admissions and the workforce fast. So the real question is what skills should students build that won't get automated? Today I'm sitting down with CEO Ryan Kick of Rev Prep. We've been friendly competitors for the last 15 plus years, but we've both been thinking deeply about how AI will affect students in the future. >> Steve Jobs extrapolated that and said, I think of the computer as the bicycle for the mind. I think AI is an evolution on that, right?

So, it's evolving both. So, I call it woman on ebike. We've already mastered certain skills that now we can offload AI, but we still have that knowledge ourselves as well. That is very different in my opinion than having never acquired those skills in the first place. >> That's the crux because if the lights go out, no AI, no autopilot, can you still think, communicate, and adapt? >> The next mistake would be thinking what it's uniquely great at is providing answers. Cuz if you view it that way, then it it starts to take some of your agency and autonomy. We talk executive function, deep learning, the future of the college essay, and how to raise kids who can use AI without [music] becoming dependent upon it.

If you're a student, a parent, or someone who just wants to stay sharp in the age of AI, this one is for you. Let's get into it. >> Ryan Kick, welcome to the show today. Uh this is this is fun because we've been uh competitors of a sort in the test prep industry for 15 16 maybe more years than that. But we've always had a a mutual respect and I've always enjoyed talking to you when we run into each other at conferences. I mean you're you're just a good uh human and really bright and capable clearly. and I am excited for you that you're now the CEO of Revolution Prep. And I was really interested when I saw you had a post up that you were really interested in thinking about how students can develop skills that AI won't be able to replicate in the future.

And this is a topic that I am deeply interested in. It plays a huge part in a book that I'm working on. And so I just thought, let's let's sit down, let's talk about this and go from there. So Ryan, um, where's your where's your thinking right now on this new world all these kids are interested are entering into with AI and how can they position themselves to kind of futureproof their careers. >> Uh, love it. Well, one, first let me just underline. I've enjoyed knowing you over the years. Neither of us have aged a day, which is wonderful. So test prep must be kind to us. uh and and I'm happy to be here and excited that you're having success with the show.

So, so thank you for the invitation. Uh yeah, you know, it's interesting. Um AI to me is is is creating, you know, opportunity in some sides and then of course creating risk in other. I don't think I'm the only one who who views it that way. Uh but where where I get excited is this idea of um are you familiar with Steve Jobs talked about the computer as man on bicycle? are have you ever heard his talk? >> I have not. >> Okay. So, so back in whatever it was, late '7s, early 80s, he's he's creating Apple and he talked about a study he had read when he was much younger about um the most efficient travelers in the animal kingdom.

So, this is an interesting one. It's how much energy does it take to move a certain amount of distance. Okay, turns out most efficient animal for travel is the condor. Okay, in in the entire animal kingdom. So, so fascinating. And man, humanity was was bottom, you know, bottom third, let's call it, right? Not very good. We all know, right? It's hard for us to run a mile. Sure. >> So, but one biologist added to the study a very interesting thing, which is, well, what about man on bicycle cuz we can create tools. We're the one of the only animals, if not the only animal that could do that. Sure enough, man on bicycle is the most efficient traveler in the animal kingdom.

five times faster, four times less energy. I think something like that. So Steve Jobs extrapolated that and said, I think of the computer as the bicycle for the mind. It's what's going to accelerate us. So I think AI is an evolution on that, right? So it's evolving both. So I call it woman on ebike, right? I think it's the better version of of man, which is woman. It's the better version of bike, which is ebike. uh but it still I think is going to be important that our kids stay close to and students stay close to how do they guide those AI efforts but also where is it not going to help at all right or even if it can help the the risk of offloading that knowledge is too great okay so when I think about that you know strong communication school uh skills uh real time agility right how do you navigate a challenge when you don't have immediate access to AI.

What does it look like to uh come up with an idea, communicate it effectively, overcome objections? So, anything that is kind of real time in nature and requires that onetoone connection, which I think is going to maintain for quite some time, resiliency, grit, things of that sort, executive functioning skills, I think will be vital. uh where maybe yes the ability to you know do a an algebraic proof or something like that begins to diminish because you can offload some of that. I think there'll be other skills that remain and and then I also think what's really interesting for students compared to you or I Nick for instance or or anyone in our you know general age bracket and above is we've already I'm going to be generous mastered certain skills that now we can offload to AI but we still have that knowledge ourselves as well.

That is very different in my opinion than having never acquired those skills in the first place and just allowing AI to do because I think about it. It's like what happens when the lights go out, right? Like I can still figure out the tip at a restaurant if the power goes out. But if we get to a stage where students, you know, oh no, I can't have a calculator. I don't get to AI. That to me is a very different different outcome. So uh that's my take is that we have to focus in on where is there going to be these skills that make us uniquely human uh and make us uniquely powerful in the interpersonal interactions.

Well, and certainly to your last point there, I mean, just writing skills are how do we teach that in this current environment where you can just kind of throw down a bunch of notes into chat GPT, especially if you have the paid version and it just cleans it up, organizes it for you, and you're you're not developing those skills to be able to organize your own thoughts. Yeah, it's a fantastic question and I think part of it is helping students understand writing as skill versus writing as uh assignment and I think writing as assignment is probably the most common type of writing a lot of students now right which is you have this paper you have this whatever it might be so because it's not a passion of yours you know you're not you as a student might not be particularly interested in how well you can defend a position on the Great Gatsby you're very comfortable just saying hey AI Hi, you know, help me.

What did the uh the glasses mean? You know, um right >> and and and you know, maybe that's not the end of the world, right? I I this is where I try and come back to, which is, >> you know, maybe for the things that were always, you know, assignments for a student who's not passionate about that topic in the first place. It's okay to have a little bit more bolstering of of tools along the way. uh much like we use calculators now to take some of the heavy lift off but you know it's still not changing the fact that you need to have familiarity with mathematics but I think that's different than I want to be able to communicate effectively around something that is uniquely my own.

So AI knows about Great Gatsby. >> Yeah. >> But let's say the assignment is tell me about a time you overcame a unique challenge. you know what was the grid and how did you feel at that time a AI does not know my experience AI can't help me with that assignment and those are the kinds of things I think if we keep bringing those types of things to students where the output can only come from within it at least forces a draft to come from us now you may drop that in AI and clean this up grammatically and you know what word would have been more powerful but but maybe that's not dissimilar from asking an older brother or mom or dad or your English teacher, hey, what what could I be doing differently here?

Uh, but I think that's part of it is how do we bring tasks and assignments that are harder to to shift off to a platform and and make us again more uniquely us. >> Yeah, I like that solution. It it reminds me once I took a finance class in business school and >> all the students were really upset and they said this was oh this class is so hard and I discovered why on the first day when he said you are not allowed to use Excel or any sort of spreadsheet in this class. I need you to learn how to do these how to solve these problems by hand. And there was a lot of push back even though the guy had been doing this for several years.

Everybody raises their hand. They've got reasons why this is ridiculous. This isn't how we do it in the real workplace. And admittedly, I was one of those people. I was I said I this feels like we're going back to the stone age. I I don't need to learn how to do this. But I was surprised a month into it how much I was learning. Once I got over the initial roadblock of how challenging it was to solve these things by hand, I suddenly understood how these different elements when you calculate a variable interest rate uh or how a bond changes over time, the price and yield of a bond change over time.

when I had to do it by hand, suddenly it was these connections were formed between the different elements that never would have been formed had I just punched it into Excel, gotten the answer, and moved on. So, there's a concern there that kids won't develop that. But I think you make a really good point there where if you're not interested in finance, it would be silly to force somebody to go through those exercises that I went through. I did really want to learn it inside and out and it helped me to do that. And so maybe the answer to some of this stuff is not binary. And I know we all get stuck in this.

I think because of the the thumbs up, thumbs down on social media, right? We want to go, okay, AI is good to help kids to write or it's bad to help kids to write. It's it's net positive versus net negative. >> And I like that you're getting at it might be more subtle than that. And this >> Well, go ahead. >> No, I I I think it is. is and I I one there are studies that show to your point on having a handwrite writing still physically writing your own notes commits things to memory far more effectively than the students sitting in a room you know doing a laptop and now imagine a world where they're not even doing that they're just turning on you know a a Fathom notetaker there's a million platforms that do this now to capture all the notes and you know send them a summary uh so >> they'll basically record the lecture and then just send a summary >> correct act.

And what's really fascinating is that can help you get past the test, >> you know, in that great I'm going to review my notes. Oh, I see this point that, you know, Professor Stanley made, so I'll I'll keep an eye out. But a month, two months, three months from now to come back to that same topic, you probably have already lost it. Right? So, it's a very short-term transactional way of learning. Whereas taking that time again, hand, right? your your chances of recalling it weeks months later uh even having to apply having not applied it again is still much higher. So >> yeah, >> so that is where you know I think it's about the the best use case like when does it make sense and it's interesting internally here at at uh revolution prep when we are having meetings you know discussing oh how do we want to approach the new ACT or something like that we'll run a a noteaker to make sure that we get to be really present in the conversation >> right >> and I have found in those moments it's worked really well because I'm more focused on what you're saying at each moment, hopefully going on to ask better questions cuz I'm not trying to keep up with my note-taking.

>> Yeah. >> But I'm also in a transactional relationship with them. It's a 30 minute. We're trying to get to a couple key points, get to some distilled takeaways and move the ball forward. But if I actually, you know, want to to learn something and keep it, that will not be an effective tool. So I think it's knowing what what are we trying to you know accomplish at that moment and then saying what's the best approach for that. So I I do think it's quite nuanced uh and yeah I mean there's fascinating stuff going on in the space like the you know the the the ways you can use these tools the outputs of these tools.

Uh, but I'll just reiterate, I think one of the most important things is having expertise that you then somewhat, you know, kind of move off to this AI assistant is different than never acquiring the expertise in the first place. And that's where I want to make sure students and hopefully teachers and our tutors, we're all trying to find that that middle ground to make sure we're still helping students acquire expertise themselves and mastery. >> Right. And you mentioned mastery there. I mean, one of my conclusions here in looking deeply at what at the present moment, what AI is good at, what it's not, and what different experts in the field think it will become better at is that deep learning for students is really critical.

And by deep learning I mean going learning that has depth and breadth in a subject that you have a deep interest in because these creative contributions to various fields AI is a lot less likely to be able to replicate and and when I say creative I don't mean just in art or creating a a new uh terrific painting or visual um a piece of visual art like Creative as in creative/inovative, right? I mean, you can be creative in science, in the way you approach an experiment, creative in business, in the way that you craft a marketing campaign or a strategy. And those creative contributions will come from a deep reservoir of information and learning and long-term retention.

And yeah, I think that's where my concern is at is if we if school is oriented towards a place where it is quickly absorb just enough information to do well on a test. And just like you said with the notetaker, the automated notetaker can help you just get the answers to the test and do well on the test, but it doesn't lead to long-term retention. And I think we need a little adjustment in our in the way school is structured so that the incentives are aligned with deep learning and really absorbing stuff much like how you said hey we can make a writing assignment so that the student is incentivized to have to write if it's about themselves rather than the Great Gatsby which catch GPT can go just pull those answers for you.

It can't pull the answers about what was your personal experience when you had to overcome X and show resilience. >> Exactly. And you know where I think we'll make the mistake and AI use. So there's two mistakes I think we'll make. One would be you know head in the sand. Oh it's going to ruin the next generation. So we shouldn't use it at all because I think we used properly it's a fantastic tool and will accelerate learning and by the way give opportunity to students who to learn about things that they never would have otherwise. So so I think one a full stop I believe it's positive. Uh but then I think the next mistake would be thinking what it's uniquely great at is providing answers because if you view it that way then it starts to take some of your agency and autonomy and to your point even creativity and and innovation out of it because instead you're just saying oh I have this problem answer it for me right where I have started to use AI in a really I for me at least effective way is saying not about the power of it answers but instead the power of its questions.

So if you can start using AI to say things like I'm trying to solve insert problem, right? Uh and and let's make it for you know us a you know business like oh we're we're trying to solve that students more and more are lacking executive functioning skills. Uh everyone seems to talk about executive functioning skills but now I'll put my business hat on but not everyone loves to invest in executive functioning skills. So, we have a a phenomenal, you know, host of resources on executive functioning and a lot of folks think their kid probably needs it, but they're still not like seeking out actual intervention, right?

So, okay. So, that's fine. >> So, I tell Chachi, I, you know, we have this company, we have this, this, and this. You know, we're trying to solve the following problem. I want you to ask me questions so I can I can get to, you know, maybe better understand the challenges we're up against. And then rather than this these LLMs just grouping answers together they've seen before, it starts saying things like how long has that been a problem at the company? Like what have you tried? What haven't you tried? What is the biggest, you know, and it it just keeps going and it keeps going and keeps going. And it helped, you know, us start to stumble on the oh, I think I know what it is now.

And I don't believe we would have gotten the answer. We got to the answer, but it did force us to just keep thinking and keep think like kept asking why. Now, all of us could have done that for each other, but if you're anything like me, Nick, and and my executive team, we all get in a room together. We're a bunch of folks who who are accustomed to having the answer. So, we like to just go, I bet it's this or I bet it's that, and then you debate who's right. It's actually in that just like relentless questioning that I think you start to get. So, and so that to me was a great example of AI helped us uh but it didn't replace us.

It it actually made us better in that moment. So, I think like you know how do we think about things like that also is powerful deployment of these tools. >> That's really interesting. I want to turn to what do you think is going to happen to the college essay in this new environment? >> Man, it's a great question. Well, there's a lot of things that could happen here. I uh one, it could it could go the way of the dodo, as they say, right? And it could just, hey, we feel like everyone could be cheating on this and you know, so let's I The reality is though, I mean, everyone could be cheating on it already, right?

theoretically every student who applies could had somebody else uh wrote it for them, right? So, uh I don't think that's a particularly new thing. It's just it's made it that much easier and accessible. Uh I think the first wave is is colleges continuing to make sure the topic >> is highly personalized. They already do a good job of this, right? The the essay's purpose is, >> you know, we we have your transcript, we have your test scores to know if you can keep up academically. what we're looking for now is are you the kind of person someone would want a room with? You know, are you going to enrich our campus?

Are you going to be, you know, a fit in in so many other ways? So, they're already dialing in the questions pretty effectively. I think they may need to go next level for a little while. I think eventually that will get kind of, you know, also quote unquote outsmarted or or outed. Uh, and then I started wondering what does it look like if instead you have to submit a recorded answer to some of these questions. You know, imagine a world where you go, here's how it works. We have a platform here at USC. You're going to log in. You're going to be given a question and you get 30 minutes to tell us your answer.

And, you know, don't focus on, you know, you might have some ums and because you're real time figuring out, but I'm pretty sure you're not getting, you know, help on that one. Uh, so I think there's just creative ways to rethink the method to get that that aha moment, that takeaway and personalization from a student. So that that's I think about things like that that could happen. Just changes the modality, but not really what what a school is asking for and what they're learning about. >> Yeah. I was reading how a number of colleges now are using AI to do the first read on college essays. And it struck me as kind of hilarious that you've got kids using AI to write essays and then AI is doing the first pass on the essays.

I thought we we are >> losing the spirit of what we were trying to achieve with these essays >> to begin with. >> But that's an interesting idea. the video. Um, and so the kid wouldn't know the question ahead of time. >> They maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Obviously on an essay you get drafts and you have some time. So maybe maybe it'd be like, you know, be prepared to answer on any of the following questions or at least themes. So you get some orientation. Uh yeah, but yeah, I on your [clears throat] your example of the AI, you know, I can't wait until, you know, [laughter] I I envision in my head this this like report coming back about an essay where it's like, oh, I loved this essay.

I remember when I wrote it, you know, yeah, cuz you're all part of some some weird loop here. Uh yeah, I think it's real time. I think it, you know, to me I think about the way some colleges, you know, very small subset and traditionally, you know, elite or as uh the the phrase goes these days, highly rejective colleges, um use the interview, you know, um which a live interview is just probably not that scalable unless it's AI that starts interviewing these students. But setting that aside, I actually had a lovely experience working um the company I worked at before I I I joined Revolution uh called LifeLabs Learning.

Have to give them a small plug. They do manager training and stuff like that, but their interview process was phenomenal and it had uh some of these which is here's a question, please submit a video response and they did that so that multiple people could view at the same time. But I I found myself uh in that experience realizing you know that extemporaneous answer, you know, you you get a lot of insights into how somebody thinks through a problem. You know, just like you do in a job interview, right? Hey, tell me about, you know, this this or we used to ask a question at one of the companies I worked for.

Uh the founder created it as one of those like gotcha questions to a degree, but his question was just how many school buses were sold in the United States last year. >> And that was the final question. You'd see somebody go, "Oh, um I'm not sure. I could look." He goes, "Nope, >> don't look it up. >> How many?" And they're like, "Oh, yeah." And you'd see two different types of reaction. Coming back to skills AI can't replicate. You'd see the deer and headlight reactions, >> right? I I wouldn't even know where to begin. I don't know, right? You would see actually a separate reaction which was like just a a random guess, right?

Like 2 million and then we'd say why? It feels about right. But then you'd get the one that he was looking for, which was ah jeez, I don't know. Well, let's see. There's 50 states. Let's assume for a minute there's 100 districts per state. And I guess some already have buses, but maybe they have to buy two. Like, and it didn't matter if your answer was really all what he was looking for is in the absence of anything, how do you try and reason to a pretty good informed best guess? Right. Right. >> Uh, and so I felt that happened during that interview interview process with that company. And I think that's where colleges could start to replace the essay and get some really interesting insights into a student and and how they operate.

So >> that's interesting. We started using the video questions for interviews at test prep gurus as well and I really like it and what's interesting is there are some people who clearly really take the time and energy to prepare for their video questions and they're they can re-record them if they don't like their answer And some of these people, it looks like they have a full teleprompter and a setup, like they wrote out their answer and they've done it. >> And yet >> what I draw from that, I mean, it's almost like the school bus question when I see somebody who goes next level on their preparation and they're it's coming out like it's extempiraneous, but clearly they prepared it and it's just an incredible answer.

I think to myself, well, that's someone who when they're in a challenging situation will figure out a way to be better at it than than just winging it on the spot. And I feel like a lot of the value these days with the with standardized tests, with the SAT and the ACT, it's interesting to me that over the last 20 years, as more students have have become aware that they could prep, scores have improved across the board resultingly, right? We go, "Oh, there as students become aware, it's there are more students getting perfect scores today than there were 20 years ago. Oh, I could do that. And so, in a lot of ways, what standardized tests select for now are students who will prepare for whatever situation they face in order to reach a future goal.

At least, this is my going >> theory. It's very difficult to tease that out through the data. >> Yeah. >> But if you think about it, that's that's showing the grit, the resiliency, the growth mindset. And those are all qualities. Like it doesn't shock me at all that the SAT, the ACT have become more predictive of grades in college, graduation rates from college, all that stuff that the New York Times covered from the uh opportunity insights study. And to anyone that wants to look at that, I will link to that in the show notes. Um, and and it even I mean those standardized tests were even great predictors, better than high school grades of job placement after college and graduate school placement after college.

And it was surprising at first, but when I thought about it, it made sense to me because it is selecting for students who will prepare for whatever stepping stone is in their way or along the path to get where they want to go. >> Yeah. And that video interview kind of works the same the same way. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um one I you know you and I I would muse on SAT ACT with you uh for for weeks at a time. But >> Sure. >> You know what's what's fascinating about the the SAT ACT in my mind and I will say it's funny because here I am by CEO of a largely test prep company. We do academics also but uh and and you and your role but I still have I have kind of a lovehate with these exams right I think >> sure >> I think saying they have no value is is its own kind of head and sand I think what where they have value is a an element that a lot of folks don't want to kind of you know quote unquote admit which is in the last 20 plus years or thereabouts um the number of students with near 4.0 0 GPA or above.

Graduating seniors, it used to be about 17% of graduating seniors were, you know, 4.0 students or above. When I went to high school, that was kind of it. Maybe probably even a little bit less, probably, you know, like 10%. >> Now it's over 60% of students. >> Yeah. >> And so there's there's two things that could have happened. It could have been we've finally cracked the code and all these kids are getting way smarter and we're getting way better at at at achievement. And yet you talked about small increases in SAT ACT scores, but they've nowhere near tracked that increase in GPA. Right. >> Right.

So where these test scores have become really helpful and that's why you're seeing the Ivy Leagues go back where for a while was test optional is they go listen at the end of the day every single kid who applies here is a 4.5 GPA student but you know this group is getting 1500 plus and this group is getting 1,200 or 1300 that feels different and the and pains me to say this but I used to um talk about you you may have seen this I have met so many sharp kids that great GPA that like at first or even sometimes after practice just could never knock it out of the park on the SAT or ACT. I've also met a lot of sharp kids with 4.0 GPA or sorry, a lot of kids with 4.0 GPA that I go, man, 15, 20 years ago, you were never getting that GPA.

like, you know, like there's some there you're just not quite doing what it used to require. >> I've never met a kid who could get over 1500 on an SAT that isn't sharp. It's like at its most extreme to do really well on that exam, >> it's revealing something about that kid. It may not be all the things that, you know, uh, the test makers purport it to be, but I just don't think you can do that well even with help from folks like me and you. I think we help kids who already have good horsepower get to better scores on that test. There's a certain threshold that if you don't have like you can't get into the upper reaches.

So, it's super helpful at separating the the best students. That's where I think it sells a lot of value and why the SAT and ACT will will stick around. Uh I think its usage in some other areas is overstated. I think when you start having families go, "Oh, you know, I I only got a 1430 and my neighbor got a 1450." and you're like, "That's the same kid." Like, that's you're talking, right? So, so things like that I I think is overused. But, um, the SAT, ACT, I think to your point, like there there's something to it. There's a there's there's um there's something in the way it reveals a particular type of student.

And, uh, your point about grit and and resiliency is an interesting one because the the part that I also, you know, struggle with is we we charge for what we do and, you know, as as do all places. And so, yeah, you could easily kind of make an argument. There's a lot of students who don't get access. We we have really generous scholarship programs. We try not to turn away kids over ability to pay, but we're only so big and there's so many other students out there. Uh, but there is with Khan Academy now, right? Completely free prep. It's robust prep. It's good prep. I mean, it really is. What it requires is your willingness to jump in and do the work, right?

And so if you do, you can get really far with free prep. >> Uh I think we come in helping the kids that would struggle with that a little bit more coaching and kind of bring you along mentorship. Uh but it's out there. And to your point, some kids who still won't even do that that amount, right? That's maybe there's there's a statement within that about how much extra work they'll do on any pursuit that seems difficult. So I I I think you're right. There's some insights driven out of that for sure. >> Pause. This is important. There are only three things you can train in life. Your craft, your body, and your mind.

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Let's Ryan, let's talk a little bit about your background and what led up to you getting here. Uh, usually I start with that, but we just we just jumped into the meat of it today cuz I'm so >> excited about this topic, but how did you initially get into >> test prep and then eventually how do you end up CEO of Revolution and everything that happened in between? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, man, when I was a late teenager, I just thought to myself, what career would be, uh, amazing and rewarding? And I thought test prep. No, [laughter] no, never. Never. I was going to I wanted to be a writer.

I uh I I was an English major, film studies minor. Uh, I >> So many of us So many of us do. I Okay, we're going to just take a quick time out. Why do you think that is? There's so many uh people that they think they're going to be writers and then they end up in test prep. I >> I you know I it's a good question. One is you know maybe we I we tended to be pretty good at some of the exams also. So you know the particular at least the verbal side uh I think it means there's something about enjoying probably entertaining in an audience and I think that is a little bit of what tutoring is also and teaching right so somebody smarter than me could figure out that connective tissue but but yeah you're right there's and I also think for a time tutoring was one of the better uh you know it was the gig the gig job before we had a lot of this stuff so I could speak for me you know pursuing being a screenwriter and I moved out to Los Angeles from New York and I was working at a studio doing you know the low-level stuff but you know grinding but I needed to make some money in addition so you know I became an SAT tutor because it was available and it was a strong job you kind of set your own hours to a degree nice hourly rate uh and so but I I I did it to just get a job I'll start with that that's how it started but I fell in love with it like I love there was something I didn't realize at the time but there's something about being at that kitchen table, you know, with with that kid that like was thinking there's no way they can get over this hurdle.

And you know, and you know, these tests of fortune, you start getting into those emotions of like I'm I'm not good enough. And you know, you're like, yeah, you are. You're just >> let me show you a couple things that you're just not thinking about. That's different. And you see the confidence jump and you you're there and mom and dad are asking you questions about schools and you just realize like this is such a cool important time for these kids. Uh so so loved it. um then ended up uh opening a branch for the company I was working for at the time up into the Bay Area. Um then and then sadly the the gentleman who founded the company I worked for at the time, Eureka Review, as a young man uh came down with cancer and passed away.

But I I began uh running the company for his widow and then uh later we helped sell it to the Princeton Review. Uh so that way you know she she did not want to run an SAT ACT tuning company for the rest of her life and I understood that. So we we did that and I went worked at Princ for many many years, oversaw a lot of their activities in North America um both for the high school and grad and then eventually left test prep because many many years ago I thought man this testing optional movement seems to be really taking on and you know I don't know if I want to be in an industry that's disappearing let me try something else and I went and did some other fun things but man test prep just kept going and you know the hurdles to get in so uh eventually folks I know at revolution ution on the board kept calling saying, "Hey, we'd love to have you join and uh we think, you know, the we're at the right time for the organization and we think your background." So, I finally relented and said, "Yeah, let me let me jump back in." And again, similar to that first path when I, you know, I did it to do it and then fell in love, I kind of like, "Okay, you know, it's an interesting opportunity to be at the top of an organization.

Let me take that for for personal growth." And then, you know, I'm like a week into the conversations with this team and I'm like, "Yo, yeah, I love this stuff. I love helping these kids like what they're up against." And, you know, the testing optional movement was like to me like one of the worst things you could do as a college is say it's up to you if you want to do that. >> What do you mean it's up to them? You don't make the essay optional. You don't make like submitting grades optional. Just it's fine to be no testing, >> but then say it's no testing. So, at least kids don't stress about it.

You know, they didn't know what to do. It's like paralyzing. So, uh, so it was an interesting time to get back into it and I, uh, I've enjoyed it ever since. So, there's my my journey, Nick. >> I like it. I like it because I really identify with that how surprisingly rewarding it is. I mean, I I as you told that story, I could remember the first time I was working with this young gentleman who he was clearly a very capable guy, but he was struggling to just get over that last hump, right? I mean, he was truly Ivy League material and couldn't get the score that was going to put him in the in the in the mix in the conversation around admissions.

And when he got there, got over 1500 on the SAT, it it was more exciting for me than anything I had [laughter] achieved personally. Like, and and that's when I was like, "Oh, you know, I I like this more than I thought I did." Um, and >> yeah, I think that's at the heart of anybody who's who's really good at this, who spends decades doing it. I mean, it just comes back to that basic connection with students and >> so, thank you for sharing that. Um, how else Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. What were you going to say? >> No, I was just going to say it I um it comes back to you and I talking about running into each other at conferences and things, which is that's what I see also from you and and and a few other folks in this space, not all, but certainly not only you and I, but who show up and they they share that expertise openly, they share that joy with others.

uh you know observations, tips, you know, things like that. So I I think that's a big part of it is it's this uh willingness to share and that because the joy of to your point even if you end up helping a kid do great like you just did, they didn't do it through Revolution, but I love that. I love that experience. I go, I know what it's like to sit with that kid. I'm so glad they found you, you know? So, uh so yeah, thank you for sharing that for sure. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my philosophy on all of that is if you're surrounded by people that have those same intentions and want to help kids achieve their goals for the future, [sighs] why wouldn't we share ways to be more effective at that?

I I understand everybody wants to protect their secret sauce, >> uh, or at least that that instinct to protect it, like, well, I'm doing something nobody else is. I don't want to give it away. And yet I find only good things happen from just freely giving it away. When you tell people what works and then they go use it and they're more effective, >> I feel >> I don't know if we want to call it karma or or whatever, but eventually people come to respect you and want to spend more time with you for freely sharing that information. And on a personal level and on a business level, good things happen as a result.

Um, from not trying to hoard information. >> Yeah, I agree. We're aligned for sure. >> Uh, where else do we think college admissions is going to change in the future? >> Yeah. Well, now forget AI for a moment. I think the biggest challenges colleges are up against is the declining confidence among the American population in college. >> I was at a um I was at a uh conference ASU GSV which is big uh edtech conference happens every year. It's combination of uh edtech companies and then ed leaders. And I was at a session and the topic was you know all the disruption in college right now whether it's AI whether it's you know political leadings and not even judging that but they were just saying there's a lot going on for us right now and so they were all talking about in the moment and the one panelist uh who who really resonated with said I think we're all reacting to the now but the thing we didn't react to about 15 20 years ago is our biggest problem which was I think it it was 2009 2009 I think was the first time a survey of the American population showed a slight decline in the belief in the value of college education and it was a small you know it was like 2% it was a blip you know kind of ignored then it happened again another year or two later and it felt like it was with just a certain group of like it was just and colleges just kept going like oh they don't get it they don't get it they don't get it and actually it was really fascinating it was at the time the panel was talking about DEI and you know kind of that flux and this leader said and it really landed with me he said we're up here talking about and trying to defend DII programs he said which I I believe in he said but more than half of the American population no longer believes in the value of what we do that doesn't sound very inclusive and that really struck me and there's this moment in the room kind of got quiet because it wasn't not what people wanted to hear but I I think that's what colleges need to wrestle with which is, you know, yes, there's all the things that you can't measure about getting a college education that I benefited from.

Socialization, maturation, you know, all the but also I better be able to get a job [laughter] that helps me, >> you know, pay off some debt or whatever it might be depending on your family circumstances. >> And short of that, it gets really hard to say it's worth, you know, $50,000 a year to to go learn how to be an adult. That's very, you know, very difficult. So, um I think they have to wrestle with that and I think until they do, you're going to see more and more a school just the other day actually announced it's closing. Uh you're going to see more of these smaller regional schools, I think, really struggle with viability.

And I think you're going to see more and more applications go to the schools that kind of prove out their pipeline of of uh career placement after. And I'm not sure we want to get to a point where it gets really narrow and it's only about that transactional nature, but you ignore that I think at your, you know, kind of uh detriment. So, not you specifically. >> Well, you you mentioned one of the mistakes we might make with AI is just putting our head in the sand and trying to ignore it. And >> I feel like ignoring the ROI, return on investment for a college degree, it's not everything of your college experience, but it is an aspect of it.

That is a critical piece for the reason people decide to go to a 4-year institution. And to ignore that completely is putting your head in the sand and a major mistake. I have a few I have a few thoughts on this. You're you're really let's hear it getting my wheels turning here. Uh well, I had this >> amazing conversation over the weekend. So, I went to Pitzer College and one of my favorite professors was retiring and so I went to the retirement party on Saturday, Dr. Nigel Bole. Uh thank you for being you, Dr. Nigel Bole. And over the last 10 years, he started a program called Inside Out uh for Pitzer College where incarcerated individuals can take classes while they are incarcerated.

And then some of these people when they're released, they're fully admitted into the program and and take classes on campus. Some of them have a supervised release while they're actually still in prison, but they can take classes on campus. And they have had insane, amazing results. And several of these individuals spoke at his retirement. And I was so moved by this one gentleman, his name is uh Kenny Butler, and I went up and talked to him afterwards and just said, "I need to hear more about your story." and he had been in prison for over 20 years. Originally had life without parole. Um but through becoming educated realized there were some problems with his case.

Got a retrial, ends up being released and then is able to take classes on campus. He finishes his BA at Pitzer. He's now working on a PhD and is traveling the world. He became a Fulbright scholar. He's traveling the world through these different programs to work on prison reform and so looking at different prison systems in other countries and lessons we can learn and bring them back to the United States. An incredible individual. Next month we're going to do an interview with him. But what really struck me was I asked him about this. I said, I see so many kids these days that are coming from an an extremely privileged p place.

Um, and you know, very different than you, Kenny. Uh, cuz Kenny, some of his relatives were founding members of the Crips, uh, in LA, which we're all familiar with. He was one of the head shot callers uh, for them. Those those are his words, not mine. Um, and and I said, "What what do you think about these kids saying they don't think they need college anymore? They can just go out and go join Google and and good things are going to happen for them." And he said, "Well, I can't speak to any of them." But he just said, he said, "Nothing has transformed my life like education [snorts] and learning deeply and creating this hunger to learn and then create change in the world." And I don't know how this connects back to all these students thinking that they don't need college anymore, but it was refreshing and inspiring to hear this individual talk about how education had transformed his life.

And >> maybe some of these kids need to hear more stories like that because for him there was a huge obvious return on investment um because of the cost of college uh personally, professionally on on every level and I still think there's value for students but maybe colleges and educators like us. I mean we need to figure out how to communicate that better to some of these students. >> I think so. Well, and I think that there there's twofold, which is the ROI, which you talked about there. There's two V variables, right? Which is the success earned on the other side, which is what you're talking about right now, which I think we have to do a better job of helping people with.

Also, help them realize that outcome is tied more towards like your major than an individual institution. You know, I always joke like, you know, you want to make a good living, go get an accounting degree from Sea Sun. uh don't be a sociology major at Harvard because that I could tell you which one out of the gates for just a job is the better choice. But then there's the flip side uh or the other side of the coin for ROI which is the investment before the outcome which is the greater that is the more I need the return to be large and what's really gotten you know out of sorts at least perceptionally is the cost of going to college.

And what's really interesting is colleges will be quick to tell you rightfully by the way how the average price paid by a student is you know maybe only 30% of their sticker price you know that you see on their website but the problem is that requires education and explanation right which is okay wonderful >> but what about the person who doesn't have a college counselor you know that's equipped with that knowledge in their district or doesn't have a family member that went to college before and knows some of that nuance and instead just clicks on a couple websites and sees $65,000 a year staring back at them and just checks out immediately because they go how a quarter million like there's no world.

And the reality is that student may have had a Z cost of attendance. >> Yeah. >> But it's not what you see and it's not what get you know a lot of the headlines are always about you know NYU now charges $75,000 a year. It's like yeah but very few will ever pay that. And the folks who do pay it can. So, you know, it's not a burden. >> And yet, there's this race to go up. Like, it's it's really almost perverse. Like, there's a race at colleges to charge more and admit fewer students. It's like the kind of the opposite of what you'd want for accessible education. Of course, they're admitting fewer students because more and more students are also applying to 35 colleges.

It's like you get in this weird cycle like, well, if the low admit rates, I better apply to as many as possible. But now if one student has 30 applications, colleges were going to turn away a lot more applications, you know. So that's what I worry about, excuse me, is we have to be talking about all sides of it, right? Which is like outcomes, you know, u higher ability, skills that matter. I think we also be talking about the cost of attendance to make sure that that transaction really works out in your favor. And then of course there's room for the which I think is very real once you answer you know can they launch you to the career you're passionate about can you afford it which I think have to be like primary decision drivers then you get into okay great for those that check both those boxes which one has the environment I'm more excited about which one you know size of school uh you know extracurriculars do they have a big sports program or not all those things that matter about the quality of your lived life for your time there.

But I think a lot of folks start with that and all of a sudden because they've decided they have to go to a school with like a D1 football program in an area wherever like you know that you you narrow your schools down with the wrong criteria first and now you're stuck with it's expensive or it doesn't have great careers for me. And I think you have to think about what's what do you want after college and then begin to kind of you know hier you know hierarchy of needs for that one for Maslo just to say okay what matters first okay I need to have employment I need to be able to afford it and and then you get to those other ones and then you've put the power of the decision I think back for students whereas by chasing a brand you've put all the power back at a college like if you decide there's only two colleges you'd be happy at that college gets to charge almost as much as they want because you're like that's the only place I'm going to go.

That doesn't work. So, >> this episode of the Nick Stanley Show is brought to you by Zapier. If you've ever felt buried in repetitive work, copying data, moving files, sending follow-ups, you know, it's like death by a thousand mouse clicks, [music] Zapier has always been the tool that fixes that. It connects over 8,000 apps, Google Drive, Slack, Notion, Gmail, MySpace, you name it. So, your tools can finally play nice together. But here's the big shift. Zapier now lets you create AI agents with their chat GPT integration. Think of them as tireless teammates who never complain, never take lunch, and never get bored of doing [music] the boring stuff.

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So, if you're ready to stop wasting time on busy work, join the AI revolution and make a little automation magic of your own. Try the Zapier [music] Chatg GPT integration using the link below. Yeah, it so the sticker price one you mentioned and it strikes me as a huge sticking point for a lot of families, especially those that are not extremely well educated on the process. I mean, if we have a school charging $75,000 for tuition uh before room and board, granted, most families are not paying that sticker price, but most families also don't understand that most families are not paying that sticker price.

And it seems like there's a incentive there to raise the sticker price so that the huge donor family who can afford it. Well, we let's keep inching that number up to increase this endowment and we can have a few more >> chancellors and uh department heads that that oversee things. Um because the the administration across the country and many administrative jobs in colleges have far outstripped uh new faculty jobs >> and that doesn't strike me as a great situation for your average family and it would erode confidence in the system as a whole. Are these people really putting my best interests first?

I mean, if if you're looking at it with a skeptical eye and not just going, "Oh, I automatically need to go to a four-year college with a great reputation, you're going, "Oh, okay. So, the sticker price is at least a quarter of a million dollars, uh, and looks like it might even approach half a million dollars. That that sounds like somebody that's trying to take money out of my pocket." I mean, I can emotionally I can I can empathize. I don't think that's actually what's going on, but I can understand how it might look that way to certain families that are looking at this with a skeptical eye.

>> Absolutely. I agree. Well, and what ends up happening is to your point, >> uh, colleges in in in deference to them. I think they're largely always well-intentioned. You know, I think that they're trying to deliver great outcomes for the students that come to campus. >> Uh, but I also think that they're they're also in competition themselves, right? There's only you can only go to one school. you get to pick from a couple if you're admitted. So, how why us? So, there's lots of times investments in, you know, the quality of the facilities. There's investments to your point in, you know, um making sure research and you know, those outcomes are great and publishing and all the things that make it a better recruiting engine, but it doesn't necessarily lead to, you know, uh increased spots for students.

For instance, like I I I I've often wondered, you know, Harvard for all the endowment, all these could they they could have expanded so they could house twice as many students, >> right? >> It could have been a choice they made and said, "Man, wouldn't it be great to get Harvard education and all the things we're proud of to twice as many students as we ever have before?" >> Uh but of course then what does that mean for admit rates and you know what, you know, all the things that you know, it's a choice. And so if you're not going to admit more students and by the way you you you could potentially earn more money for the university because you have more students paying a certain amount of tuition.

Uh but instead they try and transact more on the same base of students. And so that's that's that race. uh yeah you know and it's again I I I come back US news and world reports and things like that and and even the you know existence of companies like ours like all of them pay a small part in this belief that like it's all about getting to the next level and you're chasing that and I you know I think about my own when I went to college you know there's a handful of students I did not go to an Ivy League school there's a handful of my students at my school who did but then it was a lot of like where are you going without judgment Right.

So I end up going to one of the states. I'm from New York. I went to Sunni Albany. Happy to share. So the equivalent of the UC school system for, you know, California folks, the Sunni system in New York. Uh went there, had a great experience, you know, thought it was thought it was lovely in many ways. Uh and I had friends go to all sorts of different colleges. But there was never at that moment for those parents or us. And we were, you know, middle class like, you know, fairly striving area. Uh there wasn't like a oh well I'm sure that's nice. you know, and now you get this kind of country club.

I think a lot of it is around the parents, like what bumper sticker can I put on my car, what could I tell my neighbors? And that I think now you're moving it from isn't it great that you went, your kid went and got a college education, which should have value no matter where you went to almost it only counts if it's from one of these universities. And that I think is what kind of tips the dominoes that then lead to all the other things that that have gone a little sideways in in uh higher red unfortunately. >> Right? They're playing status games which lead >> colleges to then respond to that the market and feed in to the status games.

>> Totally. Absolutely. Well, let's round this out with what can parents and students looking at this environment, what are some things they can do to pick the right school to navigate that college admissions experience and hopefully build some skills that AI is not going to be able to replicate along the way or in 10 years. >> Yeah. Okay, great. Um, so one, I always like to begin in a seg like this. Uh, the best advice you can get is advice tailored for you based on, you know, your school counselor, uh, you know, folks in your in your network that know this best. Uh, but in general advice, I think one of the most important things you could do, like any choice, is become a more informed consumer, but actually be more crystal clear on what is the outcome that matters most.

If the outcome that matters most is name brand school, uh, by the way, not not an outcome I think it should be, but assume, well, it gets pretty straightforward. There's probably a small list of 20 universities, by the way, all incredibly difficult to get into and you got to do your best to be at least somewhat eligible and and then hope kind of it all works out for you, right? But if it's I want to go be this profession, right? Great. Does that profession require usually a graduate degree? It does. Okay. Well, guess what? No one's going to care what undergrad you went to if it requires an MBA.

The thing they're going to look at is where's your NBA come from? So now, okay, if I want to make sure that is a really name brand university, that does not necessarily require you're at a name brand undergrad. In fact, go to uh maybe an undergrad where you're one of the higher performers. go get an honors scholarship, be in the special dorm, get all the benefits, be a highf flyier there, and then go apply to, you know, Yale, Harvard Business School, whatever it might be, and now pay that high price and things for the two years, but on something that has proven to be pretty transactionally valuable.

Like if you have a a graduate degree from some of the elite schools for certain careers, it matters. That has not that that correlation's never really been proven at the undergrad level. Again, that's where major matters more. And you go, okay, it doesn't require uh, you know, an elite college degree. What does it require? And you kind of back out, go, okay, how much now flexibility do I have where I don't have to be beholden to a small subset of schools, right? um and and make those kinds of choices because I think if you do that again I always come back to the the you know they're going to advertise the 8% you know admit rate at uh at Harvard or 4% these days kind of thing.

I always say you know who has the lowest admit rate in the country is you like you can only go to one college and there's 3,000 like so you're you they're doing everything they can to convince you to show up at almost any university. Um so become that informed consumer so that you've really put it back in in your favor. And then the the other thing coming back to these kind of like sticky skills these these uh irreplaceable skills you know um I think that's like make sure your executive functioning skills you know prioritization uh organization motivation uh things like that being able to move things into working memory quickly and efficiently.

really prioritize those and work on learning skills because at this point everything is moving so quickly. Any modern employer will tell you the relevance of your degree and what they taught you is like probably within two years almost irrelevant. It's are you learning now on the job. Are you you know and that's being a learner is a skill. >> Yeah. >> It's like that is not memorization and paring that is you know adaptation curiosity. So you lean into those and I think that's how you navigate what is going to be a disruptive labor market for the next few for as for long as we could foresee it right now and I think that's where you double down um as best you can that that's how I would kind of pour a moat around my viability as an employee is say be as flexible agile and quick a learner as possible.

Yeah, I think it's it was Google who there was a conference and somebody posed to one of their it wasn't the CEO but it was a high level individual within Google and they said what's more important the for uh to someone to have a a great computer science degree or have actual coding skills right they were they're >> basically trying to get at this question of is college important for hiring at Google >> and he said I don't think of this as an either or question. It is yes and >> he said yes I want you to have hard coding skills and maybe that's taught in school and maybe it's not. He said if you've really got the goods you're doing that on your own and you're driven and you're you're going into that on your own.

He said, "Where I like a college degree is to teach the critical thinking skills that will keep your skills relevant in the future." And I thought, "Wow, if a college were to just say that with their marketing materials, you suddenly could create confidence again in at least that institution." >> I would think so. I like that. I think that's a good place for us to go. combination of those, you know, curiosity, inquisit, you know, uh, thoughtfulness and then to your point, this excitement about evergreen learning. And I think that is that could be trained, that could be learned, and I think that could be a great part uh, and a valuable part of the college experience for [snorts] sure.

>> Absolutely. Well, Ryan, I know you need to get going. I really appreciate your time to take a moment to sit down, talk. Really enjoyed this conversation and can't wait until we connect again in the future. Yeah, >> sounds good. I look forward to it. I appreciate it, Nick. Thank you. >> Yeah. Oh, and Ryan, um, if anybody wants to learn just more about you, where are the best places to find you online? >> Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, if you ever want to reach out to me personally, I'm on LinkedIn. probably one of the better places to find me. You can feel free to message me anytime, but uh if you wanted to, you know, seek out help from Revolution Prep, best thing you can do, revolutionprep.com.

Uh and again, we're big on the creating better learners, grit, resiliency, executive functioning alongside the hey, what are three quick tips to, you know, outsmart an SAT math question. So, uh feel free to to check us out there anytime as well. >> Fantastic. And Ryan, I'm going to put that in the episode. We're not going to cut it out even though we're sponsored by Test Prep Gurus. Uh, I appre >> How about this? If you And if you don't like what you find at revolutionprep.com, [laughter] check out my friends over at test prep gurus. Uh, you >> perfect. There you go. >> Perfect. That's good. That's good collaboration right there.

That's >> it. >> All right, Ryan, you have a great day. Great to see you. And um >> Yeah. All right. >> Sounds good. Be well. >> Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions. Don't accept the status quo. and be curious. [music] >> The Nick Stanley Show.