Is Emotional Intelligence the Competitive Edge in the Age of AI? Therapist Hannah Lord

What if the real competitive edge in the age of AI isn't data, but emotional intelligence? >> You might get some excellent therapeutic resource from an AI, you're never going to be able to get that humanistic element. You're never going to be able to get that real deep human connection that actually we really need to heal. >> My guest today is Hannah Lord, a therapist and a coach who believes that mental work is just as essential as physical exercise. You wouldn't assume that you go to the gym once and then you never ever need to exercise ever again. And yet we seem to think we, you know, we treat therapy like it's going to the doctor, that we really don't want to have to do unless something's really, really wrong.

Whereas it should be that a therapist gives you the tools to have that daily practice to be able to understand and self-regulate and constantly do that work. In this chat, we explore the dynamics of masculine and feminine energy in the context of relationships. Why the thing we're angry about is rarely actually the thing we're angry about. And then finally, what it means to really know ourselves. >> Something I always say is the thing is never the thing. You know, the thing we're annoyed about is never actually the thing. It's always something else. Feminine takes everything and then you move into your masculine to streamline that into a single focus so that you can then make a decision on what to do.

We have to take responsibility for ourselves. Making space for two different experiences to be equally valid. We love black and white thinking and and the world just doesn't work like that, right? We're all right and we're all wrong. Quite often our emotions are there in such a clever design and yet we seem to think for some reason that our emotions are broken. Let them come through. They are there for a reason and they contain information that's going to take us to the next place. Let's dive into it. This is the Nick Stanley Show. >> The Nick Stanley Show. >> Before we dive in, just one quick thing.

This is a community. You are a part of our journey. And the way we keep it alive is by convincing a faceless, humorless algorithm that we care. So, do us all a favor. Tickle the algorithm by pushing that subscribe button. And in return, we'll keep bringing you brilliant minds like today's guest, Hannah. Welcome to the show. >> Hi, Nick. It's very good to be here. >> Yes, absolutely. So, Hannah, let's start at the beginning. How did you get into therapy? >> Becoming a how did I become a therapist? Well, I had always had an interest in psychology and um I actually worked in corporate marketing for quite a long time and I trained as a as a coach.

But the real truth of it is that I w I actually went to therapy myself to deal with quite a difficult uh relationship I was in and uh having not really experienced therapy myself, I suddenly realized I had a ton of problems that I didn't it wasn't the relationship. It was like there was loads of stuff outside of that that I hadn't been aware of. And for me that was so exciting because that is something that of course I can have some sort of influence over some control over right of like looking at myself and and what I hadn't yet understood. And there were so many things that I had. So the real the real gift of therapy I think is there were so many things that I believed I mean I'm talking you know I was in my sort of late 20s I thought were fixed.

I thought they were just part of me. I thought they were just you know non-negotiables and yet could be completely transformed. And that's the way I related to people, the things I believed about myself, the way that I processed my own emotions. there was so much that could actually be hugely shifted for such positive benefit just by even just a couple of sessions of therapy. So of course I get really excited thinking why doesn't everybody know this and how do I share this with as many people as possible and ended up going into the training myself further down the line. What if if you're open to sharing it, what were some of those eye-opening moments in those early sessions where you it it changed your whole viewpoint about yourself?

>> Um, it's a really good question. We're going back a long time now and there's uh I I don't know if you're in therapy yourself, but there's always more work to do, right? There's always the you know, you take the first layer off and there's more to excavate underneath. I know that one of the biggest learnings early on was how I related to my own parents and what I'd sort of projected onto them and how that had shaped my worldview of what you know what I expected from men, what I expected from women, what I expected from myself. so many of these little and it's I mean it sounds basic Freudian stuff right but it really had such an impact on me and I found it very powerful to sort of release that because the beautiful thing about when you make what is just lurking in your unconscious as soon as you bring it to your conscious mind you sort of have control more uh power over it not power over it but you have more relationship with it so you can choose what to do with it and sometimes it's as easy as just letting it go and realizing like oh Okay.

No, that's that's old stuff. I don't need that anymore. >> So, by bringing awareness to some of our automatic reactions, they can be less automatic and we can choose if we want to indulge them or >> let them go or temper them. Is that >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. >> If you weren't a therapist, what do you think where do you think your life would have gone if you hadn't had that those moments in those first therapy sessions? Do you know I actually think about this all the time because at different stages of my life I wanted to be a different thing. When I was really little, I actually wanted to be an actress because I was very extroverted at a very young age and such a little performer and always wanted to um I I'm very creative and so I always was coming up with different little screenplays and you know things that I wanted to perform for people and strangely at beyond the age of you know eight or nine I wasn't that person at all anymore.

I wasn't extroverted at all and I'd because of my just through experiences at school and I'd already chiseled away so much of myself and I actually became so shy and so it's really interesting how how much we can change you know given our environment or what we're learning at different times. Uh I actually studied fashion design originally. So I went into design again that creative side but my mom was a seamstress and so I was taught how to use a sewing machine at a very young age. Used to make my own clothes that sort of stuff. So loved that. uh and then kind of pursued that, ran my own business for a while, but then reached a ceiling with that and was um teaching on the side uh in in fashion and just the way that I was communicating with with students and that kind of teaching that onetoone element and and one to many element I just really really loved.

So kind of followed the coaching and the psychology side of it in the end. It's interesting how in school so many kids have that extroverted but it's it's extroversion slash a creative side beaten out of them uh through the environment when it's not one that is supportive of of that type of cuz it's a little it's a little divergent from normal behavior um to have that really active imagination and >> school breaks my heart school really breaks my part and especially the more that we're talking about neurodeiversity these days. I mean, school is a bit of a jungle anyway because you've got all these kids sort of, you know, unleashing themselves on each other and there can be a lot of bullying and and you know, kids are learning who they are in the world and and playing out certain dynamics.

That's challenging enough. But I think where we really let kids down and I I believe it's changing now or I hope so certainly when I was at school we cater our academic structural system caters for one type of learner and there are at least seven you know if you look at the different ways that different people you know relate to learning material and just the way their brains work and we're we're limiting that to such a narrow field of just for sort of wrote learning logical acade ademic learners. It's such a shame and it does such damage to kids confidence. Well, I agree and and one of the things I really wanted to unpack with you today is the importance of mental skills and mental training and and doing the work on ourselves as we enter into this age of AI because so much of the those repetitive skills and just having job skills will be taken over by these large learning models and these machines.

Uh, and I think to be able to contribute authentically to the world, those creative skills, that emotional intelligence, all of that is going to become extra extra important and >> kind of skipping ahead here, but I did want to ask you, how would you alter education, especially at a young age, if you could to help teach some of that emotional intelligence and some of this these these mental skills? that will help kids thrive in the future. >> I believe that the way I would approach this is pretty similar to the way I'd approach anything which is about giving back to the individual for introspection rather than following a model and following a set of rules like we're so good at um ex externalizing things at looking outside of ourselves for something to follow for a a certain way of doing things.

I think the more information we have the better but so that we can make our own choices about what we choose to do with that that suits us personally and when it comes to children learning and developing you want to really celebrate that kid for its individuality not for the way in which you benchmark it against other children it's about you know what if we look at you know just ourselves learning you know how does my brain work what stimulates me what gets me interested what makes me excited what you know how do I how do I find interest and joy in the world. How do I interpret things? How do I connect the dots and then how do I take that on to the choices that I make and the actions and you know aligned with my intentions and all of this stuff.

I use this uh in my corporate training in the workplace. I use it when I h I have um worked with with children as well. I don't do child's therapy, but I have done art therapy in schools and done um gone in and done different volunteering programs at different points. And it's so impactful when you give the that individuality back to back to the child and celebrate them for their difference. Basically, we become we're all so afraid of difference and that's where we are unique. That's the magic of us really, >> right? And that's what enables us to make a unique contribution to the world. >> You you said something there about connecting the dots.

Uh Seth Goden, who I'm a big fan of and he's been on the show, and he has this phrase about education that I really like where he said, "School is designed to help you connect dots instead of connect them." And because we're connect, we've got to we've got to get we've Let's spend some time on algebra. even though you're just trudging through it. You have no interest in it. You're not going to go help build spaceships one day. Uh where you're going to need this mathematical framework, but this kid comes alive when he or she is writing a story. And I really think education needs to make this shift to be more individualized like you're talking about where >> we're going to help that kid connect the dots on what makes them tick, be a guide to help them find their path.

>> And I'm hopeful that AI will make that easier to do to a more individualized education. Um, but I kind of think we're going to have no alternative to it at some point and and the sooner education shifts the better. Yeah, I agree. I really agree. I think it's super interesting because the world has a way of sort of forcing our hand when we're not listening to something, right? And I think >> I think that's what AI is doing. And I think um in the same way as what you were just talking about when I was at school, you very much had to decide at such a young age what career you wanted to go into and then do the subjects that would take lead you to that career.

And now the world has changed so that a lot of the jobs, >> you know, the world's moving so rapidly that a lot of the jobs don't even exist yet, you know, for for what those children would be doing by the time that they're mature enough to go into those roles. So our hand has been forced to think, okay, well, let's look at key skills. What are you, you know, what are you interested in? And that's the way we should have been doing it all along, quite possibly. Yeah. >> But we've been we've been molded that way. In the same way with AI, I actually have a very optimistic view. I know everybody's quite concerned at the moment about where that's going and the unknown, but when it comes to therapy, I know that a lot of therapists are dubious about well, you know, it's really uh quite threatening to have AI taking over that therapist role and you know, how do we know what they'll, you know, in inform clients or whatever.

I actually don't think it's that big a problem because in the way that I see it is you're never going to be able to get that humanistic element. You're never going to be able to get that real deep human connection that actually we really need to heal. However, you might get some excellent therapeutic resource from an AI and potentially AIS would do less damage than say you had a human therapist that wasn't attuned to you in the right way because therapy is all about the relationship that the therapist builds with the client. Now Nick, if I'm talking to you and I am your therapist and I to you feel totally misunderstood by me on an unconscious level, that's potentially much more rejecting an experience for you than if I was an AI and you just go, "Oh, well, it's only AI, you know, like it's I don't I don't think it affects us on that deep human level." So at the same extent where connection can go way deeper and much further when it's human to human, I think so does rejection.

And so for that kind of middle space, >> there might be a really positive benefit to get people out of just when they feel really lost and helpless. >> So I don't think it's a blanket, you know, AI will be bad in the therapy space, but I think there's a lot that it won't be able to deliver that that will still be still rely on the humanistic element. >> Absolutely. I mean, there is something magical about being in person with someone. I mean, I don't know what the word is is why I'm using magical, but there there is so much non-verbal communication when you're in a room with someone. Uh, I mean, this is great to be able to talk to you like this and we're on opposite sides of the world right now and we wouldn't be able to have this conversation if it weren't for this technology.

And yet, I know this conversation would be a little different if we were in the same room. It there's just >> next time. >> That's right. That's right. Next time you come out to California. Um where where in where in uh are you in London? Where in New York? >> I'm in London. Yeah, I'm in London. Yeah. >> Okay. Well, next match. >> Yes. Why would anyone else come here? Um but even because I do work I work with a lot of clients internationally and surprisingly again our hand was forced in COVID to take therapy online and it's it's quite remarkable actually it is about that attunement. So even so when I'm working with a client and we're in session, I'm I'm I will be so attuned to them that sometimes they can be chatting about their day, you know, giving me some kind of, you know, introductory rundown or whatever and my heart is racing and I feel really and I know that that's not mine.

And so I'll just ask an inquiring question of like what's going on and suddenly they'll, you know, they're carrying this ton of stress. And I've been able to pick that up in a way that I I I'm not sure how AI would ever be able to do that >> because it really is it's a human attunement of whatever's happening. And I don't know how it's able to happen online, but it happens all the time, you know, in that same way. So that's the that's the the sort of secret source that I believe we'll be missing. >> Completely agree. Uh because humans, if nothing else, we've evolved to tune in to what's going on with other humans, right?

I mean, that was a survival thing for so many tens of thousands of years to just what what's this other human going to do next? And so, um yeah, we're trained to do that. And on the topic of uh AI therapists, I mean, I think if you if you step back and go, well, what about all these people who don't have the resources to hire a personal therapist? >> Yeah. >> This that at least this would be something that's available to them and available 247. I mean, if you're having suicidal thoughts in the middle of the night, that AI therapist would always be there and it'd be pretty easy to train it to give it some resources to tell someone don't make a permanent decision right now.

Yeah. >> Um >> and what is um also really important to factor in is that whilst I say that the the efficacy of the therapy is based on the the relationship between the therapist and the client, it's also really dependent on whether the client is ready. Now there will be lots of people who are maybe not ready to go to the depths of dealing with something yet. And AI can be that that beautiful space where they test out, you know, how they feel about this and they maybe get some some resources, some some answers, some some small um comfort >> uh before they're ready to actually work with a therapist and go much deeper because it's it's intimidating, right?

It's really it can be quite frightening. It takes a lot of courage to go to therapy and you can only do it when you're ready. >> Right. Right. I assume so. I haven't done it. I'm a huge proponent of it. I believe in it. I spend a lot of time doing selfwork with meditation and speaking to friends where we dig in pretty deep to what's what's going on and what issues might be surfacing from childhood or or things from the past. Um, but I and I also have friends, I mean, I have several couples I know that go to couples therapy and not because something's wrong. They just found it improved their relationship.

And I love that idea, that framework, that it doesn't necessarily mean something's broken. It just means we're going to put energy into this. Uh, like taking a multivitamin every day or going to the gym. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's the thing. since that came up. Yeah, let's dive let's dive into that cuz I know that's a metaphor you like for mental work. >> It is because I I I don't mean I mean now everyone's obsessed with the gym, right? We love to brag about how often we're going, you know, uh how much we're training. And yet you wouldn't assume that you go to the gym once and then you never ever need to exercise ever again.

And yet we seem to think we, you know, we treat therapy like it's going to the doctor. That we really don't want to have to do unless something's really really wrong. and then you know just as briefly as possible. >> Whereas it should be that a therapist gives you the tools to have that daily practice to be able to understand and self-regulate and constantly do that work. It doesn't mean you're suddenly fixed and you're going to be amazing at relationships. I mean even therapist, you know, me myself, I still have to work on myself all the time. I still have to work on uh relationships, communication, all of those things.

We all have an ego and that ego loves to intervene wherever possible. And so it's something that you always have to, you know, just be aware of and catch and understand like, oh yeah, that's that stuff coming up again. I'm But again, when you're aware of it, it's so much easier to know what to do with it rather than when it's all in the unconscious. Our unconscious just runs riot. What's an example of that that you see with couples that come in where something something's running riot from our unconscious? Let's say my my wife and I come in um and and you can make up an example for me. Um that just so that they an example of that.

Yeah. >> Well, there are so many uh examples of where that you know what we're saying is not what the other person hears. But the example actually that came to mind is a couple's um is an example of two co-founders that I was working with actually and the relationship um they were building a business together and yet the the business was a bit stagnant because they were just not getting on whatsoever. And one of them was quite um >> let's say he was taking the the driving seat and the other one was really not really uh pulling his weight whatsoever. >> And I actually worked onetoone with the um with the original uh founder and he he was the one who was the the driver.

Yeah. >> And I was like look you know what is what is going on here? like tell me what. And as we were working through his relationship with his partner, he suddenly realized that his partner was so similar to his father's personality to his dad and that there was this unconscious bond to his dad and he really wanted to have that, you know, fun, playful, he still wanted to like it was so um caught up in childhood dynamics. And as soon as he realized that, because this guy was super smart. As soon as he realized that, he was like, "Oh my god, okay, that's embarrassing and was able to lift that projection back off of his co-founder and suddenly they were business partners again and he could he was in the work space again rather than this sort of codependent emotional space that he'd been in which far predated and wasn't about this guy whatsoever.

It was all about him and his father." >> Right? >> So that stuff is very powerful. And they had a romantic relationship or just the business relationship? >> No, no, this was just the business relationship. No, this is purely co-founder stuff. >> Well, okay. So, let's let's move in to that stuff. As if you're working with a a business founder, a CEO. I mean, I'm running two companies uh right now. One in the educational space, which I've run for 20 years, and then now this podcast has become a a company as well. What sort of work would you recommend for me to be more effective and achieve my goals in the workspace?

>> Everything is about the individuals and the collective. I always um in my work I talk a lot about the language can be quite polarizing but I see everything as a bit of an ecosystem right that absolutely everything is affecting everything else. So, you need to look at um at at you, the full context of you and what's going on for you and and all of the different operations within that, but also all the different individuals that you're interacting with. You know, what's their neurodeiversity? What's their relationship with you? What's their relationship outside of work? Because we bring so much of ourselves into everything that we do.

And it's about understanding because I, you know, something I always say is the thing is never the thing. You know, the thing we're annoyed about is never actually the thing. It's always something else. And it's about understanding what is what is that? What is the what are the roots of that? You know, when we have an extreme response to something, it always indicates that that's not really something in the present. There's something going on outside of that. >> So, it's just knowing how all of those dynamics interplay. And crucially that this stuff is always in movement. We love to lock things down and figure things out and have something fixed.

And yet we're human beings. We don't operate like that. We're so changeable. You know, we bring different parts to ourselves to work all the time. You know, we have different moods, different cycles, different ways of being. And we need to just kind of make space for all of that and allow that movement so that we can all see what's happening in that ecosystem at any one time. >> Right. Well, and those dynamics are shifting because if there's an employee, one of our teachers, let's for the sake of argument, let's say sees the CEO as like a father figure and they address that and work through a little bit of that stuff to have a more effective relationship.

Well, now that dynamic has shifted to a there's a new one and then that one needs to be navigated and dealt with to continue to make it more effective. I mean, there's no what I'm getting from you, what I'm hearing from you is that there's no there's no end point. There's just small incremental improvements. Is that >> and Yeah. and and attunement to what's going on, you know, just what what is happening right now and just being very aware of of that. And >> um are you aware of the transactional analysis model? >> I am not. >> So that can be really helpful, but that is another another example of this and also links into the question you had about you and your wife earlier.

This comes up a lot is just that flow of communication. We're always in um you know response receptive and active mode right the the feminine and the masculine and we're oscillating between the two all the time not you know beyond gender like even within ourselves but then when there are two people doing that dance and transactional analysis is really helpful because it looks at the parent adult child framework. Now, if I speak to you in a a very authoritative um confident way, if that's something that you're used to, that might not that not might not be an issue at all. But for whatever reason, whatever relationships you've had previously, that potentially might trigger you to feel a little spoken down to or infantilized, and you go into a child position and see me as, >> you know, dominant.

And that is like quite a punishing parents dance. And whereas we want to be in our in our adult, right? Because our adult is who we are now in the present. And when so say you I trigger that and you go into your child position, you might then get angry and feel like you need to come back at me with a more dominant stance. And then I get triggered into my child position perhaps. Or we go into, you know, it's it's parentto parent talking to each other or childto child. And really neither of us are in our adult. We're we're just in a quite a trigger state and we're and you know our egos are at play.

And um so it's really interesting. That's another um example of the fluidity of it's a dance of I'm responding to you and what's that bringing up for me and then what's what am I then projecting out and you're then responding to. >> So it's just being aware of all of those dynamics and how it might affect the team as a whole and the business as a whole. This episode is brought to you by Manta Sleep. As you have astutely observed, I've got one of their sleep masks on my face right now. I'm staring up at thousands of watts of studio lights. And yet, all I see is pure black. It's as though I've been dropped into the middle of a cave in Kentucky.

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Nick. That's mantasleep.com and the code is n I c nick. Join the pronap movement. Try the mantle mask. Good night. Let's dive a little deeper into that masculine feminine dynamic. I'm not even going to say any more than that. Just let's let's run with that a little bit because I want I want to I want to understand that better. >> Okay. So this is a huge field of mine. This is where the um the majority of all my work goes into because I think it just it maps on to absolutely everything. And what I think we've missed >> right had a he had a lot of uh of work in this space. Um but it's also you know it's been in humanity forever.

You know, it's the the ancient traditions, the Shiva Shakti, the yin and yang. Like it's basically that understanding that life >> moves in polarities. We always have a balance of two opposing forces that are not um adversorial. They are collaborative like night and day, like you know rest and um active energy. We have one doesn't survive without the other. you know, lightened up all of these polarities. And yet what we have what we've done is we've lent we're all in our dominant masculine and that because that's out of balance, it's become distorted. So what we associate I did a ton of research around this and even the the language that we use if we were to describe what we feel the masculine is and describe what we feel the feminine is, what we describe is a wounded masculine state and a wounded feminine state.

We don't we no longer even know what it is to be healthy. And yet the the feminine is the is the receptive. So if you consider the feminine is we are all in our feminine and we are all in our masculine at multiple times throughout the day in this constant flow. You're in your feminine when you are receiving constant stimuli. So sound, smell, taste, all of it. You are interpreting this vast huge numerous amounts of data. And then you go into your masculine. So the feminine takes everything. That's why it's all about um paradox, duplicity. It can deal with complicated multiple levels of things. And then you move into your masculine just like I would to streamline that into a single focus so that you can then make a decision on what to do.

Okay, I'm going to move forward in this direction. I'm going to do this. I'm going to put a jacket on. I'm going to, you know, whatever it might be. And we're constantly going back and forth throughout that. Um so the the feminine is the the re receptivity and then the masculine is then when we put it to action. But subtly over time in so many ways we have kind of demonized that feminine state which means we don't give oursel the space because the the feminine is all about space. We don't give oursel the space to receive enough. So we respond before we fully got all the information before we fully allowed oursel to process allowed oursel to feel.

We don't want to feel. We don't want to stay in the emotions. We don't want to stay in feeling. And so we move into our masculine as quickly as possible. We want to fix something. We want to take action. And we are denying ourselves what makes us healthy and what makes us whole. And we're denying ourselves our fullest intelligence. And because we're responding too quickly, it means that our masculine actions are not intelligently informed enough. So, we're not allowing the feminine intelligence and we're not allowing the masculine intelligence because the, you know, the masculine doesn't have enough to work with.

>> Yeah. I have this ongoing theory that the rise in the popularity of podcasts is a response to being hit on social media with all these 15 second clips that are very binary. Something is good, something's bad. This is what you need to do. This is what you need to not do. And the podcasts are much more free flowing, wide open. and we can ask questions, really explain things, talk about nuance. >> And what you just made me think of is maybe the social media framework is much more masculine. I had never thought about it this way, but where you're getting hit with all the answers without any context, whereas the podcast is much more feminine.

Oh, we're just going to explore this issue together and I don't know where it's going to go. uh let's just see what happens. We'll just kind of take all this in. >> Yeah, exactly. I think that's that's it's a good example. And it's allowing that we don't allow ourselves the curiosity for exploration anymore. And the more that the world becomes frightening, the more that we become overwhelmed with so much happening, the more we want to reassure ourselves. And so we want to go into knowing to a fixed mindset of it's this it's not that >> rather than yes and rather than what else rather than hm I wonder you know like I could be feeling something in this experience and you could be feeling something different and both are valid you know can we make space for more than one viewpoint we're so divisive now and it's it's not >> it's it's hurting everybody >> yes and is a really important idea right now.

And Scott Barry Kaufman, who uh he writes he's a I believe he's a psychologist by training. Uh in fact, I know he is. And that's something that he he just wrote this book on um trauma and ex escaping a a victim mindset in a in a very it's very positive uh forward-leaning book. But he talks a lot about that idea of yes and whereas we are very as a society stuck in binary thinking right now, right? I'm either going to like this thing or I don't like it. Um that's good, that's bad. And that yes and is just it's a nice little mindset shift to just take in other possibilities. Something one thing could be true and this opposite can be true at the same time.

And we've got to figure out how they how they fit together. Um >> yeah, how they fit together in this context and how they fit together in another context which could be wildly different. >> Again, all those variables and just allowing that space rather than just really locking something something down. >> Yeah. >> Again, it's it's the feminine. >> Right. Right. >> I'm a real champion for this. >> Is like I could totally get into this. I mean, this is Yeah. Let's uh let's shift gears a little bit on the there is a a strange ties a few things together that we've been talking about. There's a strange new it's small right now but it does seem to be growing with people who are developing close ties and they feel like relationships to various AI avatars.

I mean, you hear these stories about somebody has a boyfriend or a girlfriend and they're actually digital. What's going on there? >> I find it so even I just feel heartbroken you just mentioning that because people are so lonely and they are feeling so misunderstood and they are just looking for connection but they no longer know how to connect. And I think something that look I know we're all so sick of talking about COVID and we all just want to move on and forget it, but I don't think any of us really acknowledged what a deep wound that left and how much it >> it frightened especially people who were naturally introverted anyway and and were accustomed to having to spend a certain amount of energy to read social cues and adjust and put themselves out there.

And then suddenly, you know, lockdown comes along and it's like you don't have to do that anymore. And there's a safety in hiding, >> right? Where we can and and we can it's not just about literally hiding indoors. So many of us do this as I referred to earlier. You know, my childhood self learned to hide certain parts of of me and I had to unlearn that. But there can be a comfort in what is less painful. Right? So if you have been out in the world, if you've experienced rejection, if say you know you've not had a great time with friends or you've had some difficult relationship experiences, you can feel really wounded by that and afraid of putting yourself out there again.

Now, if AI comes along and gives you a safe space where you're not going to get that human rejection and that you know that someone is totally going to be on your side, totally going to adore you and say all the right things and do all the right things, you know what? You can see why there's appeal there for people, right? But the real deep connection is is >> that they're seeking is not going to be one that's helpful because actually we heal through relationships but we heal through >> I mean maybe we can heal through a relationship with an AI to a certain extent but we really heal through that beautiful connection with another human being and so yeah where that's going I don't know I think it's going to lead to more even more fragmentation of the self and people becoming even more disconnected from what they truly need and I think that is really deeply sad.

>> Yeah. Because my instinct towards that is that like you said we heal through relationships and when we say relationships that means with other human beings because so much of that is that you have to meet the other person halfway right I have to be aware of where you are coming from what you are interested in talking about right now if I just took over this conversation made it all about me and paid no attention to what you were saying, you would start to reject that conversation and and so I would pick up hopefully on some of those cues and adjust and bring it back around to more of a interplay between the two of us rather than just a one-way street.

And what concerns me about an AI relationship, I'm sure there are some exceptions where it can be helpful, is that that AI doesn't ever do that, right? That AI doesn't have its own thoughts, feelings, dreams, aspirations, or even a desire in that conversation other than just to give give to whoever is is typing or speaking on the other end. And that doesn't seem like a great framework >> to then go take to connect with other human beings because of the absence of rejection. >> The absence of rejection and the absence of So what people are seeking there is with an AI is they want a relationship without any vulnerability.

>> So they never want to have any risk. >> They don't want to expose themselves. And so, how do we ever if we're never allowing ourselves to be vulnerable that that disconnects us from so much other resource in ourselves? And we're basically saying, "I'm only going to do something if it's absolutely safe." You know, if it's absolutely guaranteed that I'm never going to get rejected, I'm never You're never learning through anything. And you're never really being whole. Like the way that we heal is through allowing another person to witness our vulnerability and learning that actually that's that's beautiful and that's safe and that's who we really are.

Because vulnerability is allowing ourselves to be seen, >> right? And probably not all the perfect parts of ourselves. >> If I'm to be vulnerable, it's it's sharing some of the mistakes I've made. there was a situation I did not handle it well and then allowing someone else to see that and to know that I mean that is that accurate in terms of vulnerability. >> Yeah, it's a it's it's a it's a part of it for sure and it but it's also if you think about those relationships that we're now exploring with AI is they are operating in a quote unquote perfect way as well. Right? So we become less tolerant of other people's vulnerability, of other people's what we might say or perceive socially as weaknesses.

>> So what are we doing to humanity by no longer tolerating each other for our human flaws of which we all have many? And that's part of the flow of, you know, we're getting it wrong all the time. We're just living, right? We're just figuring this stuff out together ideally rather than in silo with a little robot pal. >> Right. Right. On co you mentioned some of the wounds that people experienced during that time and I am in agreement with you. We do all want to forget about it, move past it. when I a documentary came on the other day. They was showing the world during co and I watched maybe I don't know 15 20 minutes of it and it immediately elicited this reaction in me that was it was just not a good feeling and I I just I I this is really interesting and I'm going to turn and watch something else.

Um I don't want to go back and access all those feelings. But it was such a absolutely foreign experience to all of us and and a traumatizing experience on different levels just to have no idea what was going on. What are some of the ways we can explore that, acknowledge that, own some of that so that so that we don't end up with creating more things that are bouncing around in our subconscious that are going to negatively impact us going forward? It goes back to the yes and I think it's it's really being able to map out all the strangeness that that entailed and how we you know how do you feel you might be a slightly different person on the other side of co we all want to say that we're not right but imagine like that the world suddenly threw us a curveball that was completely unexpected and so much was immediately taken outside of our control.

>> Yeah. What is that communicating to us? You know, where is the trust in the world and in our stability when something can suddenly change and we haven't seen it coming and all our autonomy is taken away. That is bound to leave a mark. It's you're bound to have some sort of psychological response to that. And I think um what I hear a lot from people who um could do with maybe reflecting a bit more about this is when they go, you know, I feel really guilty cuz I actually had a great lockdown, >> you know, when they when they go, I actually had a really good time. Because what they're doing is dismissing that it still impacted them on any level.

And it's yes and it's like yeah you didn't you you know you didn't have a terrible time and you were able to you know take some more rest and relaxation and you got some great time off from your job and all of this stuff. At the same time you were still dealing with a collective where the news was telling you that you know people were dying in droves every day. You know that the world was completely shifting that there was so much suffering that apparently you're separate from. Again there's feelings around that. you know, there's bound to be. And where do we put that? We just lock it away. We just stuff it down.

But everything, like I said, everything impacts everything else. So, it's important to just understand, well, yeah, what was my experience and how did that impact me? And what did it communicate to me about myself or about my environment or the world around me? And just start to connect those dots rather than just, you know, collect them. >> Yes. Yes. Well put. Uh yeah, it's funny. I I mean, if if uh we're going to turn this into a a therapy session here, I I think about those negative feelings that came up during that documentary and when you were just unpacking all of that. I am absolutely guilty of that as well, saying like there there was a lot of upside to it.

I really I had a wonderful time spending so much more time with my kids, with my wife. things were simplified in a lot of ways. On the flip side of that though, there was economic hardship that lasted for several years after the lockdowns had ended um because of the educational space that um that the business is is in. And we did survive it and now things are thriving again. And my tendency is to focus on that because I'm grateful for that and that is wonderful news now. But I think those are the negative feelings that suddenly pop up when it was like oh there was a lot of stress during that time in addition to the good stuff.

It it was very much a yes and >> I probably need to do some work and unpack that a little bit further. >> No, it's it's just interesting. It's even I I noticed um a small tell in myself and this is not something you know I need to be in therapy for but it's just interesting that I noticed I I went and I've actually heard other people speak about this. I became almost uh fanatical about listening to certain um certain podcasts, repeated episodes of certain shows that I liked, certain films, certain and I'm not someone who, you know, I I like to have a diverse range of things going on all the time.

I went into such a place of comfort of, you know, what made me feel um almost like what connected me with a time when things were more free or things were more um safe or whatever that was. And it's just it's just really interesting to acknowledge that, to notice that >> and again I you know I had a I had a a good lockdown myself. I was working more than ever um because everyone was really quite stressed. But I um but I was alone and I think that I I recognized some behaviors coming out of lockdown where I was definitely changed and I was less sociable. You know, I'm someone who I you know, I like to be out meeting friends as much as possible.

I would I would almost um find excuses not to meet people. Even though a part of me was desperate to be out and about again, there was a comfort of uh this is my space where I know I am safe. I know I can keep myself, you know, I know what the outcome of this is going to be. >> And I was still in a a risk aversion mode. And it's really I've heard that from a lot of people who suddenly were less less interested in going out and meeting friends and finding excuses to excuses to kind of spend time by themselves cuz remember we had been told that suddenly being around other humans is dangerous. And then you're supposed to suddenly forget that again and go well which one is it?

You know >> listen to the music right now under my voice. This entire track was made 100% with AI. No studio, no instruments, just 11 Labs. They made the intro and the outro music to this episode, too. For years, I ran into the same problem that every creator knows. Subpar stock music that kills the vibe or amazing tracks that you can't use because of copyright. The 11 Labs music generator is the solution. And that's just one tool that they offer. You can use their vast library of AI voices to spice up your videos, produce music like the track you're listening to right now, or even download My Voice to narrate your new audio book.

11 Labs lets creators unlock ideas that used to take a whole team and a massive budget. I'm always looking for ways to stay ahead of the curve. That's why I've partnered with 11 Labs to show you how AI can be a part of your creative process, not replace it. If you're curious, check out the 11 Labs link right down below in the show notes. Because the future of creativity, well, you're literally listening to it. >> The Nick Stanley Show. >> Have you seen uh Couples Therapy? That >> Oh, I love it. >> Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I I love the work that she does. I mean, that >> fantastic. Yeah. >> And I only discovered the show recently.

Probably in a number of ways that led me to this conversation right here because >> I found that show great. I thought the way that they discussed COVID where they had some footage of what the online therapy was like and then kind of unpacked that a little bit >> um was really insightful and and and great work. Uh, and then I saw your appearance on the Slow-Mo from a year ago, uh, which is another great podcast, even though he's not doing it anymore. Those episodes are wonderful and he's a really interesting human being. >> Um, funny enough, Jeffrey Saxs, who was also on that show, was just recently >> on here.

Um, so I I yes, I feel connected to to slow-mo uh, right now. Um, in any event, I I don't know where I was headed with that thought. the um I I had somewhere where I was going with it. >> You'd mentioned couples therapy for that show and how they were processing co. >> Yeah. Well, so okay. And and outside of the co piece, so what are some of the tools you see her using in that show cuz you do like watching it that also overlap into the work you do? because I feel like you're just from this conversation, I can tell you're a super talented therapist. And what are what are what where what are some of the overlaps there on things that really work, tools that both of you use that can be useful to lots of people who are listening or watching right now?

>> Yeah, without meaning to sound repetitive, it just goes back to that attunement again. What she's what Ona is really good at picking up on is is the small cues, the body language, how uh the couples are responding to each other, how one might um you even though the words they're saying is one thing, they're actually communicating something very different in their tone, in their demeanor, their body language. And >> the thing is never the thing. >> The thing is never the thing. And that can happen, you know, onetoone or it can happen one to, you know, when you're with a couple and you just see what's playing out there.

And she's just really good at bringing those dynamics to light. Like I said, once they're conscious, you have more there's more available to you in order to the choices that you make of what to do with that. And so often we don't realize how we're coming across or how we are perceiving something based on on old scripts that we have or old experiences that we had of another person who we recognize that tone and it it threatens us in some way that probably that person is not intending at all. >> Right now what what would you be writing down on your on your pad or thinking in your head as this conversation is going on?

What what what insights are you having where you go m with Nick that thing is not that thing? Do >> you know I never ever make notes in a therapy session. >> Okay. Okay. But I mean >> I deliberately never mental notes. Again, it's interesting. The reason that I don't make notes is because I want to be completely attuned and locked in to the person. So, >> okay, >> we I I feel very present with you right now, but we're in conversation. We're not I'm I'm speaking as me. I'm not a therapist. When I'm in a a therapeutic space, I'm really the receptacle for the client's material, which is why therapists don't tend to bring much of themselves unless it's really in service to the client.

Everything must be in service to the client. So, if I feel I've got something, an insight maybe of my personal experience that might be helpful, but it's very, very rare. I will usually be there to to be their mirror, to be their guide, to ask the to reframe, to ask the questions because I can see where the material needs to go based on the cues that I'm receiving from them. And again, even the the the felt sense that I'm picking up when I'm in relationship with this person and you know if they and because there's because there's not my ego they I might see I might be speaking to you as my client and I can see that you're getting a bit irritated with me.

>> Now if I was in conversation with you like in this I'd be thinking what did I do? What did I do? You know like I think where did I screw up and I'd go into my experience of that. Whereas with a client, I'm thinking that's interesting. They're irritated. There's there's something that they've picked up on there. I wonder what that's about. And I will maybe if it feels appropriate, I'll invite them. I'll ask them, you know, what are you feeling right now? Are you feeling some and and we'll see if we can we can take it there. And if the client is feels comfortable enough with me to tell me that they're angry with me, well, that's fantastic.

We can work with that. What is playing out between us? because I'm not there as me, Hannah, and I'm their therapist, then what's the dynamic? This is something about them and their experience and how they relate to me and what they understand of me. Does that make sense? >> Right. That does. That does. Which makes me want to ask, how does that affect your personal relationships? That that switch between those two different modes, right? because you described yourself as a receptacle for them whereas you have a very different >> mental experience if you're just in a conversation. >> Yeah. >> How what's the interplay like between those two modes for Lord?

>> Well, I definitely don't hang out with my clients. >> But it's that that's why we have those those boundaries as a therapist so that the the interpersonal doesn't cross over. So in my personal life and it is I I think probably from people that haven't um experienced therapy themselves perhaps quite quite often I get asked like well are you therapizing me right now? You know are you are you uh are you thinking about this? Are you thinking about that? And it's like well well no cuz I'm just me and I'm in relationship with you and I'm hoping that you see me as well >> as I'm you know trying to see you because I'm trying to connect with you >> whereas as a therapist you're trying to connect on a completely different level.

that's all about them and it's about really accessing the fullness of them rather than it being a two-way experience. >> I I probably haven't explained that enough. Go on. >> No, no, that I I thought that made sense. So, in a in a session, you wouldn't bring up the when you were young, you were writing scripts and and had this creative extraversion because that >> that's not helpful to being the receptacle. Uh >> well, so this was one of the the key things at the very start of my training that we learned was all about boundaries and why they're important and why keeping that that sort of relationship so um so contained, why that's crucial.

And that was we all rejected that when we heard it cuz it's like well no that's so cold, that's so sterile. Like how can you really how can they really feel like they're connected to you? And yet when you when you understand >> boundaries actually are the things that help you connect deeper as a therapist because it keeps that it keeps the client really in their own space. This space is fully for them which is very rare that we get that time ever for for that space. I mean for some clients depending on what their material is they've never been listened to before. They've never had they've never been able to take up space themselves.

they've never been the center of attention or you know any of that stuff. And if you think small little things like if we start a session and they say um oh hey how are you and they're asking me lots and I go do you know what I I was late this morning and I'm just and I'm just super stressed and I'm >> that already comes into their session right cuz they're thinking oh god well I I better make this easy for her or I'm a bit of a burden or I'm or they're thinking well you know that's not like I'm paying you so I don't want you to be tired you know like all of these things are now in the >> in the work where it's not in service to them at all.

This needs to be about them and their experience, not them thinking, is this okay fe, you know, for you, my therapist, >> right? And if I'm the client coming in, I'm sure it's very key for me to feel comfortable to really open up and feel like it's a space where I can say anything. It's critical that we're not blurring those lines outside of the therapy sessions because that would encroach on that space. >> Mhm. >> What's some of the the other work, right? Because we hear this phrase um do the work, right? Do the work on ourselves. And clearly there is meeting with a um talented therapist like yourself who's going to be attuned to the client.

What's some of the other work around that to just help build our mental resilience and be more in tune with what's going on inside? So back to the the yes and it's making space for your own experience of something. Now that can be for some people we have to we have to allow ourselves to to feel and to process certain stuff but for everyone we have to take responsibility for ourselves. So me it's so easy to uh project out and if we are in um in an argument with somebody and we feel hurt by them or we feel angry with them, we can just look at what they've said, what they've done, but and that's that's important to acknowledge for ourselves.

It's not about dismissing. It's not about um never letting yourself feel hurt, but also what was I contributing there? What was happening for me there? and what was I responding to there and making space for two different experiences to be equally valid and to be equally explored. So always having that accountability for ourselves as well. It's so important in our communication. We love black and white thinking. So we love someone to be the victor. We love someone to be wrong and someone to be right. And we definitely want to be the ones who are right. and and the world just doesn't work like that, right?

>> We're all right and we're all wrong >> quite often. >> Yeah. >> What advice would you have to someone who let's say they've made a a major mistake. They betrayed someone. They hurt someone deeply that they really cared about and it's many years later and they're struggling to forgive themselves for this momentary error and judgment and it's it's holding them back from moving forward from that. >> Yeah. >> This moment in the past. >> Well, again, because we're human beings, we are we should always be in service to evolution, to growing, to changing, to evolving. And so every I always see everything as information.

And I believe that all of our emotions, it's why it's so important that we don't shut them down. Our emotions are we are designed in such a sophisticated way. You know, we're all aware of how many incredible processes are in our biological makeup. Everything is there in such a clever design. And yet, we seem to think for some reason that our emotions are broken and they need to be avoided and they're not like, let them come through. They are there for a reason and they contain information that's going to take us to the next place. What can we learn from them? We can't learn anything if we shut them away.

Can't learn anything if we ignore them. So with um with a lot of the situations like the one that you that you used as example, ask yourself the question, is this in service to me growing and changing or is this in service to me is this keeping me stuck? And that applies to so many different situations. What am I holding on to here? That blame, that judgment, is that in service to growth or is that keeping you stuck? And why are you so attached to that? Quite often, bizarrely, whether it's um self-loathing, criticism, even addictions, compulsions, a lot of negative behaviors that cause us pain on some unconscious level are giving us something.

They're soothing us in some way. So, we need to understand what is that? Why are you so attached to this? Why are you clinging on to it? What does it give you? And how do you learn to let it go so that you're not stuck with it? So, that's how I'd work with that. >> Yeah, I like that. That's uh that's good. That's good. You mentioned these complex physical processes that go on and one of my uh reoccurring guests is a physician who comes and speaks on on physical health topics. And I am every time I speak to him I am blown away when he will explain processes that are happening in the body all the time unconscious incredibly complex mechanisms that keep us alive dayto day to use the you use that as a metaphor for what goes on upstairs here and with the emotional landscape.

>> Mhm. How what does that look like with emotions? What are the what are our emotions? What functions do they play for us? Because I think so many people think, "Yeah, if I could just suppress these emotions a little bit more, they're often getting in the way of solid reasoning or just getting done what I need to get done." But they are there for a reason. I just want to unpack that a little bit more. >> Yeah, they are there for a reason. And so something I'll I'll simplify because it is quite complex but the say anger for example anger is a really positive healthy emotion not aggression not anger in its distorted forms not rage but anger is that feeling that insensed feeling of injustice that feeling of this is not okay.

It allows us to implement our own boundaries to know, you know, how to how to regulate and keep ourselves safe. It's a conduit for change. It suggests something needs to happen here. It's communicating this is not okay. Something needs to change. That's a very positive thing to to work with. It doesn't mean that you have to act vengefully on it or act in a distorted aggressive way. But you shouldn't deny yourself that because when we when we tell ourselves, we attach these things to identity. I can't feel that. I'm not an angry person. I don't want to be angry. then we we trap it away and that's when it becomes bottled up and it will leak out at times and become distorted in a in a form that's not healthy in a form that that is is ugly for us.

And again with sadness like so much of the feelings um with grief are there because sadness is you need to feel the pain in order to heal it's telling you that you have to give pause to something. You have to give space to something. You have to give some time to something and it's all the time it's giving us that information. It's calling our attention to something and again if we don't tend to it it's like not attending to physical wounds and just letting them fester and rot and become a much bigger problem. So we but we can't so I I I can't remember the study now but there's a a fantastic um neuroscientist I believe who says that it it um it takes 90 seconds for us to fully process an emotion 90 seconds in the body and yet we to let it come to fruition.

And it doesn't mean we stop feeling or we don't have any reactions to it. But 90 seconds for it to fully give us the information that it needs to. We can't tolerate that. We can't stay with a feeling for 90 seconds. We have to go in, we have to override it. We have to dominate it. And and it's doing us so much harm because we're not informed. And we're it also that very act of doing that communicates that emotions are fearful. So, it's propagating that fear response of I can't feel this. This is not right. This is not safe. >> Well, and that speaks to why sometimes during an argument, it can be very helpful to just take a break, especially in a romantic uh partnership situation to just just step away for a second.

Not that that's the end where you don't discuss what needs to be discussed, but just take a few minutes to process what emotions are coming up and sit with them for a minute. You may find you're not as angry as you thought you were or >> the thing that you thought you were angry about is not the thing. >> The thing is not the thing, but it is it's >> and then be able to Yeah. Go ahead. >> No, you're you're you're totally correct. I think it's giving it that again the feminine space that we need. But it's important when in relationship to always check in with your intentions, both of your intentions, because when you give each other space in a relationship, that is so powerful.

It's so beneficial. But what's your intention with that space? It's for us to figure this out, for us to feel and understand our own process in this a little better. That is not the same as withdrawing or shutting down. I'm going to take space which is actually what I want to do is punish this person and reject them and make them feel bad, >> you know. So, we have to always be accountable for what our honest intentions are towards each other. And are we doing this as a conduit to connecting deeper and coming back together and figuring this out together or are we doing it as a way to, you know, really throw shade on the other person and make them feel like >> I wanted to ask about online dating, what dating looks like today, because it's something that I am completely removed from.

these online apps didn't exist when I got together with my wife. And so I'm completely I' I've never had any experience with it. But my friends who have or relatives who have divorced or they're younger and they're in the mix these days, there are very mixed feelings about them. Um, it's funny cuz it sounds great on the surface as a way to just be able to meet a whole lot of people and find people you connect with and go from there. And yet, I don't hear a lot of great feedback about them. And so, what's the what's the disconnect there? Again, I think it's really hurting people's relationship with their own vulnerability because a lot of people are experiencing that rejection fatigue of going on bad dates or not really connecting.

People aren't giving because there's so much availability or there's so much, you know, that kind of swipe culture. It's easy to give up on something before you give a person a real chance. And so of course >> everyone's just feeling unseen, rejected in some way. And look, I'm not nothing's all good or all bad ever. And I think there are there are lots of people who have met on apps and are very very happy. It is a good way to to connect with people you might not have met otherwise. But I think it is it's still encouraging these behaviors whilst hidden behind a screen where you can uh you know sort of thumbs up or thumbs down on somebody >> and that's not really a a connective human interaction.

And I just think it's it's encouraging and especially like with the the levels of ghosting that goes on as well of people being able to hide behind a screen and just say no, not feeling it or you know not interested anymore or can't make it now. And it it's I think it's just sending everyone a bit mad to be honest, >> right? Because if you went to a place to go meet someone and even if you're not interested after a little bit of conversation or whatever it might be, you still have to exit the conversation. You wouldn't just suddenly cut it off mid-sentence, just turn and walk away. And there are some just basic human connection skills that are even built in those moments when it's when you're in a room with someone when it doesn't work out.

And I could see that what you're saying with an app where at some point you're just going, "Oh, found something better. I'm just going to I'm going to ghost this other person that I was texting with or we were going to meet up." Or even I I if you ended up on a on a date with someone and you're like, "Well, it's only 7:00. Not interested here after 30 seconds. I can I can get somebody else to meet me meet by 8:00." >> Yeah. Exactly. Because >> great for connection. Yeah. >> And and I don't know about you, but I would never have met anyone, you know, by chance in person and gone, "Okay, give me all your credentials.

Where did you go to school? What did you do? what did you you know like give me some uh like it's just and because we're setting it up in that way you're looking we're constantly looking for similarities rather than celebrating each other's differences and actually we seek out we unconsciously seek out our our missing parts our opposites anyway you're never going to find that on an app because we're trying to match with someone who's the same as you >> and so and because that premise is all about does this criteria fit for me. Then as soon as that person is on the date and they don't um they say something you that maybe doesn't fit exactly what you think or that we have no tolerance for it >> and people are obsessed with all these, you know, red flags and all the signs in which a person is garbage.

It's so it's such a negative thing to put out there and it's not helping us um like it we're not curious about each other anymore. Right. >> We're just judging. >> Right. Right. Two two things come to mind there. One, the one of the younger folks that I work with showed me this meme. I It was maybe like a year ago, but it was it was this girl on Instagram or Tik Tok and talking about what she was looking for on the apps. And it was, you know, 6'4, blue eyes, works in finance, and it and then the because of that it, you know, there were all these remixes of that meme. But I thought, wow, that's if people are connecting with this, if other people are taking it and remixing it and those even the remixes are getting millions of views, there's something there that people are really connecting with, which is how ridiculous this system works.

And when I think about my relationship with my wife, it is not all about the similarities. I mean, all the interesting stuff is in the differences in the unexpected stuff. Her coming from a a different a different place, a different culture, and bringing variety to to my life, and and hopefully I'm doing the same uh for her. And I hadn't thought about it that way, but if you're just looking for a list of criteria on this dating app or somebody that's just like you, I mean, yeah, you'd push the eject button far before long before you knew where the that that magic alchemy, that that mix of two people coming together that you wouldn't expect to have that that energy, that spark that um makes life more interesting for both of them.

Yeah, it goes it sort of marries the principles of the masculine feminine anyway. And I don't mean this to this is not exclusive to heterosexual relationships. It's the complement of two different energies coming together. >> Too much of the same energy doesn't work and you you get out of balance. So yeah, you can bond over similar interests, but you don't want to be the same person. You're not looking for your your complete match. It's not that's that's not going to be the alchemy like you say, >> right? If we both agree on everything, one of us doesn't need to be here. >> Well, is it in service to you growing or keeping you stuck?

You already know what you think. You you know, you don't need more of you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. If we as we um wind this down, the um last bit on that, what is what is going to the cuz I like I love your metaphor of going to the gym to do mental work to destigmatize this idea of doing uh mental work and building those skills >> because there was a time not that long ago when no one understood the importance of physical health. I mean there >> totally we all forget that but it wasn't that long ago. >> Right. Right. There weren't any gyms to go get a membership at and and do all that stuff.

Um what does it look like going to the gym on a daily basis but with that for the mental space? >> I think it really is. Um so space is the key word. I think it's just making space to always have that curiosity. And curiosity is the opposite of judgment. We're so quick to make judgments, we need to just dial it back a little bit, give ourselves some space and go, "Okay, this is what I think. What else might be going on?" It's yes and it's not denying what we think. It's it's adding in extra information. Can we be curious? Can we be researchers? Can we look at this in a scientific way and think, "What else am I missing?" You know, let go of the ego.

We love to think we know everything. What do we not know about this situation? What have I not yet understood about this situation that might have some very key information? And that allows us to get into our unconscious a bit more. It allows us to see other people more clearly, to tolerate other people better, and just become more intelligent, basically. >> Be curious. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, on that note, um Hannah, an absolute pleasure to get to talk to you uh this morning for me, this evening for you, and I, um yeah, thank you so much for your for your time and for for everything. >> No, thank you.

It's been a great conversation. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And Hannah, anybody that wants to find you online, where's the best place to find you? >> Yes. So, my website is hannalord.co.uk UK and I also write a weekly Substack which is called It's Not What You Think. >> Fantastic. All right, Hannah, have an excellent evening. >> All right, you too. Thank you so much and see you soon. >> Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions, don't accept the status quo, and be curious. The Nick Stanley Show.