Jim O’Brien: Design Your Life

We've got Jim O'Brien here today. Jim is a world-class surfer. He really was on the pro tour years ago as a young lad. He is the co-owner with his beautiful magnetic wife of Cleo Bella and uber successful artisanal clothing line for women. Jim is a world traveler, creator of the Hab hats. We'll discuss that one later. He's a frequent cold plunger, a wellness connoisseur, and a family man with two beautiful children and an all-around fascinating individual. So excited to have you here, Jim. That's quite a build-up, Jim. It's been good. Never heard anything like that before, Bobby. That's great. Cool.

Thanks for having me on your show. Cheers. Cheers, sir. Probably start with the SAT if you're going to ask me questions. I'm probably one of the worst scores I've had in life in my life. That should be the litmus test. Can't test for the gurus. Give me over a 760 on a SAT. Because that's what I did. I got a SAT score of 760, and then I took all the classes that were available. The fucking, wasn't there like a big thick book that taught you how to do that SAT? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And still got 760. Same fucking score right after. Gosh, Jim, brain-like yours. We'd have you at 1,300 before it was done.

Easy. Really? Easy. For you, yeah. Is that why you can claim you're a guru? Because that's roughly neglecting. Well, now everybody does it, right? Right, for sure. I see him 15 years ago when I started saying I was a test prep guru. The term wasn't so saturated like it is now. Can I ask you a side question? If I drink my drink, are the ice cubes going to rattle on the microphone? They will. Just do it. When you're not in the middle of saying something important. All right. Well, so you're assuming I'm going to say something important? It's the mood we're seeing. Okay. We're having Mescal in your office, which has a lot of stuff on the whiteboard here.

How long has that been up there? Do you actively use that whiteboard? I do. And I've got multiple projects going at once. So there's a lot up there right now. I like your succulent wall thing too. It's quite nice. You make the place sound nice. It is pretty clean. Those are the books. That was the big SAT book I was talking about. So those are still relevant. Not everything's online. They are. I'm glad you mentioned that, Jim, because we are coming out with a new online class of test prep. It's kind of like how books survive in real life. Like we don't need them anymore. Everybody could read everything on a Kindle or on a phone or on a computer screen, but there's something nice about a book.

You can concentrate for longer. It does help with the learning. You're not scanning as much and you dig into it a little more and more. Those books are good for camping too. Good fire starters. Yes. Excellent paperweights. Totally. Like that actually bought me one of those for my birthday one year. It was all about taxes too. That was an awesome birthday gift. That is a really interesting gift. I could ask you about surfing and we could get into that. But I thought even more so than surfing is that you're good at living. You are always traveling somewhere interesting, doing something interesting.

You have really strong relationships with a lot of people in a lot of different walks of life. You're always on some new podcast or a book or idea, always trying to challenge yourself. I just thought he's really good at enjoying this journey that we're all on. Do you have any secrets? Any little actionable tips that people could take into their lives? Right. I mean, design your own life. You mentioned the surfing part, but a lot of it does stem from surfing, right? And then curiosity, they come together. The two energies collide, right? Surfing. My opinion, big part of is traveling and finding new waves and going to surf and try to get good waves or new waves or something different.

So that leads you on different paths and journeys and meeting people and cultures and things. The route of surfing, if you really get dedicated to it, is like focusing on the swells and the waves and the energies. So therefore, your schedule has to be flexible. You got to drop what you're doing. And there's definitely periods in my life where it was like you're dropping what you're doing because these waves are coming. So you have to design your life around that, right? You got to say no to certain jobs, certain girlfriends, certain commitments, you know, and be ready to go when the waves are hopefully going to be at the spot you want to be to at the right time or that, or else you got to cancel on a lot of people.

So I've historically tried to not make too many appointments, right? Lock too many things down. That's probably why I have long hair because I can't make a hair appointment and stick to it, you know, so. So all those have luckily coincided. Like, and there's just certain things I didn't want to work at a desk. I wanted to live in two places. I wasn't sure it's like setting these big dreams, but not necessarily knowing how you're going to link them there or how things are going to guide you there. And I mean, I feel very fortunate that they've guided me there more than I could ever imagine, which is simple things I knew I didn't want to have a nine to five didn't want to have a boss per se and wanted to be able to chase swells on some level or go on trips, you know, not be told that I have two weeks off or whatnot.

I never again thought it'd be this way. Luckily, Angela is very talented in which you could do and created a business and I helped support the business on the back end. But I'm not necessarily a product I could build and make a product. I definitely have been around those people who have the skill set to make products that are very marketable. And I think once people have that, I'm pretty good at like running the backside of the business. But yes, design your own life, you know, think it feel it kind of do it. It sounds like cliche in so many ways. It's a lot harder than say, but it's about saying no to more than saying yes, right?

Like, there's a good opportunity. Like I've passed plenty of good opportunities up, I would say for this job or for that, because I'm like, Oh, no, I want to make sure I want to go on that trip. But I also had lists, like I want to serve these 10 waves, you know, and the thing with serving is like the traditional retirement age, your body's not going to do what it can do when you're younger, right? So you kind of want to hit some of that stuff early in life. So it sounds like it started with the passion for surfing that requires you to lead a really flexible life. Then you start traveling. I started traveling as a kid.

So I was lucky. My parents, we traveled a lot when we were young. I still had that bug, you know, like when I was eight years old, we spent a summer in Costa Rica. And I was at the park every day, they barely speak English. I barely spoke Spanish, but I like had friends by the summer, we played and played in the park every day, their soccer played on the slides or did that. And it was awesome. Just being so enriched in another culture, which is harder to do now because the phones and stuff connect you and people are so broad. But little pockets do have different cultures. And then part of not having a boss, my dad was an entrepreneur, but he also worked, you know, for the man for a long time, just recommended that as hard as it is, as you know, the entrepreneur life has its challenges, but has its rewards.

Some of his rewards, the up sides are pretty high, you know, as far as flexibility. The flexibility is pretty huge. Yeah. And you answered yourself. So at the end of the day, you got to get off your ass and get it done, because no one else is gonna, you know, right? So you had the flexibility and then your dad gives you this tax book, this huge. So then you've got the, there was clearly like a financial push there too. Being responsible for money. So like teaching you money is a tool is a key to any of this, like if you're going to design your life, because the relationship with money is something you're going to have in your life, whether you want it or not.

So why not have a healthy relationship, like any other thing and don't like idolize it by any means, which, you know, a lot of culture does, but it's a tool like anything else. And if you use properly, it can really help you in life for many things, you know, right? Having money in the bank slot easier, being able to go on a trip. I mean, I've gone on trips with very little money. You can still travel at certain phases. People think you can't, but you can definitely squeeze by. But it's nice to go with a family and, you know, do nicer things too, as you get older as well. So I just was taught money as a tool, budgeted out, pretty simple stuff, spend less than you earn, set a certain amount away, use money to earn money on money, kind of some basics.

I felt fortunate to learn those lessons as a kid. There's a good book that someone gave me recently called The Psychology of Money. It talks about figuring out what your relationship to money is and then what do you want it to be and what steps do you need to take to get it there. Because a lot of people have an unhealthy relationship with money, right? They think of it as, well, I've got chips at the casino and now I need to push it into the next like get rich quick scheme or whatever it is rather than take a breath, think about it. Like, what could I do with this money to actually achieve goals in my life that are separate from the money or maybe money to some people is just security and a safety net so then they feel like they could take different types of risks in their lives, all of which seem healthier to me than what you see with a lot of people that have maybe they feel guilty for having money.

And so then they subconsciously are making bad or poor decisions with their money, which perpetuates this cycle of always wanting it, getting it, losing it, but kind of lines up with that psychological relationship to money. That could be one person having all those same relationships with money too. I can't say that I've had healthy. I could be on the other side where I've when you got it, tried to hold on to it and when spending anything on it for so long and then realizing that it can come and flow and the minute you hear the word of recession, I go to PTSD because of certain times in the past where the economy change has really affected that.

What is a comforter level? What's the security, right? Those are all questions. They're different for different people. What are you using for? It's tricky when it's evolving too, right? Because you have different phases in life, different expenses in life or saving for this. Should you live in the moment? You got to enjoy it now, but you want some for the future to make the future moments, possibly a little more secure, safe and better. So it's like, how do you balance those out? For me, probably my unhealthy thing was probably the hang on and the stress around like holding on to it, earning it and holding it, you know, right?

Being fearful of that and being like, oh, okay, I know how to make it. Certain things to do. It can go away, but it can come back and not totally validate yourself. Maybe on it too. That's a tricky one. I think for a lot of people. My grandfather growing up, he used to always, it was something he would say and I didn't totally know what it meant when I was little, but it really stuck with me. I think maybe because when I was really young, I didn't understand the saying, I haven't yet seen a hearse with a U-haul behind it. And for a long time, I was like, what nonsense is he talking about? But as I got older, I was like, oh, I can't take it with you when you're gone.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that was a good healthy little idea to stick in a kid's head because then you don't get stuck. Oh, I'm just going to try to hoard it and keep it because the more ever I have, the better I'll feel. But then balance that with other ideas on being responsible with money and not validating yourself. Some people get really caught up in their self-worth being tied to the BMW that they drive or whatever that thing is that they can show off that they've made something of themselves. It's a fine balance, right? Because also, it seems like the more you kind of give with the money in certain different ways or help, it kind of comes back as well too.

Even though my dad taught me some great tips about money and some of that he obviously has certain hang ups because I think he grew up so poor, is like holding onto it. For instance, he had the same drapes in the house for like 30 years. The things were falling apart and he wouldn't spend the money to replace them. I don't know if it became such a thing that he didn't do it on principle. Because my mom never liked it. He got married again, been married for 10 years. I think if they're 40 years in, they finally replaced the drapes. And that was kind of like a running joke. It's like you can afford that now.

It's okay. You can afford the drapes. Right. Well, and knowing a little bit about your dad, he could easily afford new drapes. That wasn't the issue for him. Well, no, it is. He can't, certain things he just can't spend money on. He doesn't see the value in it. I worked for a clothing company and he still wears, I mean, I haven't worked for him since 2006. He still wears a lot of the clothes I gave him from that time. Yeah. But luckily Costco sells clothes now so he can get something right. Cheap clothes. Right. So there's lessons and all that. We went on a sidebar with money. But so reminder to actually do some more therapy and thinking around it because it's such a presence in your life.

Everyone's life. There's no escape from it. You know, rich, poor, medium, all of it. It's going to be there. So we've got the surfing thing for young Jim and he's curious and wants to be able to travel. How to fund it. And then he meets Angela. I had a fair bit of time before I met Angela. She was pretty young, but I was I think 28 or 29 when we met. Okay. So I had career going. I tried to do the film business out of college. I realized I wasn't going to fit into the surfing lifestyle and I didn't like some of the things around it though I was very intrigued by growing up in LA. Then I was working at a surf shop trying to travel and you know, any type of retail has certain hours and you got to be there for open and close.

They've needed people to cover shifts at the end of the day they had to sell that a business. Then rep started coming in and I'm like, well, what do those guys do? And they just sell stuff and they drive around flexible schedule. I was like, whoa, and they make good money too. Right. They get paid commissions. So again, it kind of goes back to entrepreneur. The harder you work, the more you get out of it, I'm willing to take bets on myself. I was able to get into that type of job, which was awesome. I did ended up doing Orange County San Luis Obispo for over four or five brands for 10 years and had to get my job done, get my orders in, hit my sales goals and do that.

But flexible schedule surfing with California, many years of just Baja, Mexico. I hooked up with my buddy and we bought a jet ski and every swell we were just on it. We could drop what we were doing whether it was a Tuesday, a Thursday, a Sunday or whatever, very little strings attached. Rode that for like 10 years pretty much straight. It was awesome. Driving into different surf shops, meeting people, same age, meeting older shop owners, lots of good people. It was fun getting to explore California is a beautiful place. Sure. And the jet ski was for talent surfing. Toes. Yeah, I was right at the beginning when toes started to happen.

We weren't like towing huge waves, but like when beach breaks get big, you could paddle out and you could surf for a couple hours, take your lumps and get a couple waves. But on the jet ski, it's kind of cheating. You can just plop yourself into a million waves and get picked up. It's just so fun. Yeah. So fun. But yeah, that was just a great period of life. How big were we talking on some of the bigger swells that you were towing into? Yeah, double triple overhead beach breaks plus probably. Yeah. Some of those days. Yeah. Because you're always humble about it. I just want to put that out there.

My partner, Pia, he was a pro surfer top 16 in the world at one time in the 80s and he was just a wealth of surfing knowledge and froth to this day. He's got 10 years on me. So he's about 60. He's in the water every single day with one skill or another, whether he's foiling, stand up paddling, surfing, kiting, longboarding. He's still froth and he has a place in Mexico with the jet ski in the garage right now. So he's ready to go. But if you go with him, you got to be out there ready for six to eight hours a day. Yeah. So it's full on. So we've got the wild surfing days. Then you meet Angela while you are a rep.

While was a rep, the company I worked for, we launched, it was a men's company called Ezekiel. We launched women's clothing and they hired her to be the model for the women's clothing at a trade show in Long Beach called ASR, which is now defunct, but used to be just one giant party. And I met her there. She was 19. She liked your long hair. I don't know if she liked me too much at that time, but we did strike over conversation and chat. So yeah, I don't know. You have to ask her. I think she might have thought I was cute or something. She was beautiful. I was like, whoa. So I just recently become single too, oddly enough.

So like three months into being single. That's where that got sparked. That's a whole nother story. But surfing continued with her too. So it was awesome. I didn't stop when we got it going. We ended up in Bali as well. So that's kind of part of the deal. You're going to get involved with Jim O'Brien. Yeah, I wasn't like this or nothing, but she understood it. I think she saw like, I mean, tap passions is good. I mean, one of the marital tips is to help your partner has passions aside from you because it's just YouTube. They're relying on you for all their motivation and friendship. I mean, obviously we're best friends, but it's like, I think going outside and having your passions and coming back together for us, it works really well.

I mean, she's still got tons of friends. They go out. They go do things. I think it's awesome. We come back. We hang out. We have a blast. We go out with our friends because I have my friends, but both have our own lives. We have our lives together too. It's a whole new spark when you go out and spend time away from your partner with new people, expose the new ideas, new conversations, activities, whatever it is you're doing for fun, and then bring that back to your partner and they've been doing the same thing. And suddenly there's new energy between the two of you. Totally. And you would go both do totally different things, right?

When you said before we started recording, which I thought was really nice that you still to this day feel like you're punching well above your weight by being married to Angela. Yeah, she's a mix of a lot of good qualities. I didn't expect, you know, at one point I'd given up. I was like, ah, I'll go for just seems like pretty girls are way too much work, you know? Maybe this is just like superficial to say, but from my experience in the past, you know, they get a lot of attention and some of that she's like super nice for how beautiful she is. That's what I was like. It's this real in the beginning.

Right. I think a lot of people after they meet her, that's their first impression is like, whoa, she's so pretty. And I'm like, whoa, she's like, she's not expected to be like nice or genuine. Right. She actually is. That shocks people. I guess that's something more about our society than herself. But it's cool that, you know, I think her parents wanted to instill that like realness in her and she's that way. And then she's obviously very talented and different stuff and motivated to how did it happen with the genesis of Cleo Bella. She had just graduated college and then she started doing some pharmaceutical sales.

And the revenue's great. It's good money. There wasn't another step. Probably the next step was going in corporate in house, which didn't fit into my box of design in your life. I knew when I started repping that when you resigned, you got your commissions, right? So like I had when I resigned in February, I got paid all the way through October because I had booked my clothing all the way there. So it was like three quarters of a year salary. And at the time, Ezekiel, who I'd worked for, we had an awesome run through so many hiccups and a new ownership took over and we had really good people on the team.

But unfortunately, he was a micromanager and he pushed so much talent away. So I just saw no future with the brand. So we decided to go around the world, right? Trip around the world, air tracks bought ticket going forward. Amazing. It goes back to wanting to surf these certain waves that were on my list where my body could still do it. Yeah, as well. Economy was really good. Had a whole run up to 2006 like, Oh, yeah, it done a little side real estate things. And you thought you buy real estate and then you sell it for more. And that's just how it works. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Free cursoring to the oh, a downfall.

But in those six period, it was awesome. Yeah, we started in New Zealand. That's could be a whole podcast, probably a whole trip. But that's where Cleo Bella was born pretty much on the road from that trip. Yeah. Because we had intention of moving to Hawaii. I had some work lined up while I was there and and she wasn't sure what she was going to do. And you know, Hawaii is mainly tourists and she didn't want to work in a restaurant or hotel. We decided to work these outdoor markets. And so we bought goods along the way. So we're in Bali. We actually birth Cleo Bella, but a lot of the product we made, we did make that first Mexican a clutch because back in the day when you travel, you had your itinerary all printed out, right, had your passport in there and your whole wallet.

So it was kind of designed around that travel piece. But a lot of other stuff we bought was geared towards the tourist market that was going to be in Hawaii. Then we when we're in India, we found these well, back to Bali Bali was just a place we found and was like, wow, we found it. They've had two pretty major bombings, one in 2002. And the other one was in 2005. And we showed up in 2006, Bali was quiet. It was really quiet because of that. People were still scared to gather in big groups. But the waves were amazing. Food was amazing. The people were amazing. And you can create things there. And at the end of the day, Andrew was having as much fun as me.

And that's not common for many surf spots, you know? And I think that's why it's become such a hub for the world. You guys still have a place there, right? Yes, we do. We lease it and then Airbnb it out. But yeah, Bali was the spark of Cleo Bella, I would say that we found these Indian rap skirts when we ended up in India. And we brought those back to Hawaii and we sold a lot of those. That was really good. And it was mainly Angie doing all that at that time. And I was just helping her out. She put these skirts on, wrap them and selling to people. And my mom went over there and joke, like, of course, they're going to buy them off Angela.

But it was a good lesson in business because Ali Baba came out during that time too. And so we were the only person we had a card of a guy we had met in India down some back stream, we're digging for all these skirts and pulling them out. And then we'd wire them a money and he'd send us 500 more. It was awesome. But then Ali Baba came out and people were able to buy them off the internet. So it went from us being the only people selling them there to by the time we were leaving six other vendors and the price went way down on them just a good lesson in business. It's competitive, you know? So people saw us doing really well and they wanted to sell the same product as well.

And so now that things become a huge brand. Bigger than I ever imagined, not bigger than Angie imagined. I love how infectious her huge vision for the brand is. I mean, She dreams without boundaries, right? So that's the big difference. That's what I'm learning to try to do a little more. Right. And he talked to her and it's just like, I don't know, 20 million, 50 million dollar company, 100 million dollar company. Anything's possible. It is very infectious when somebody really believes that and has that energy and they're doing it. They're moving in that direction. Totally. Yeah. And she always jokes.

You never wanted to have more than 20 employees. And I think we're at 30 or something now. And I'm like, I guess we're doing it. When you say those numbers, I just start thinking, the negative side effects put potentially not the upside or the fun parts or the new doors that open and all that too. I obviously dream bigger in certain other ways. Or maybe I just set these little parameters I want to live within and as long as stuff kind of flows through those parameters, it's kind of all good, you know, right? Yeah, like to be back on the Bali routine. I don't know how that's going to fit back in our life.

Most of our production is done in India now just because Bali can't do the volume we're doing. We're still doing a lot of hand tooling and working with some smaller factories there. Like we started emails got on bank accounts so they could start their own micro business. You were living about half the year in Bali about four months. And then the rest of the time here. Yes. But now because of the business doing what it's doing, is it harder to find the time to just go? I think it's a mix of things right with that the business is yeah, a little more full on kids, right? We did design our lives so the kids could go over there with our whole home school program so we could pull it off.

But it's a little more work, especially you see the workload or what is he's learning compared to what you're hex learning. Right. You know, when we had to teach Keenan, you know, two plus two or five times five versus like, you know, how to divide fractions and stuff is a little different. This episode is brought to you by Test Prep Gurus. Test Prep Gurus helps students raise their ACT and SAT scores so they can achieve their goals for college and beyond. ACT and SAT scores are optional at many colleges. However, submitting a strong score can often double a student's chances of admission. ACT and SAT scores are strongly recommended or required for many college scholarships, including $30,000 per year at USC, $25,000 per year at Notre Dame, or Texas Christian University's $57,000 scholarship among many others.

Visit www.prepgurus.com to take a free ACT or SAT exam and learn more about how your son or daughter can boost their chances of admission to selective colleges by raising his or her standardized test scores. And now back to the show. I just related that what you're saying to foiling, you know, I've taken on that foiling and I've been in the water my whole life, just being out there feeling like a complete beginner, kook, just crushing my ego is parallels the idiot phase. So it's definitely an interesting phase and challenging phase. And I think a rewarding phase, especially later in life, you find a lot of people kind of stick to what they're good at sticking their comfort zones and seems to be good to challenge yourself to get out of them.

100%. I mean, some of the most fun I've had recently was when I was definitely being an idiot at jujitsu, trying to learn it right here at the Leo Fira Dojo here at Seal Beach, a little shameless plug for those guys. Because they're wonderful, awesome people and they run a great show. They sure do. I would still be doing it if I hadn't jacked my neck. It's a hard thing about trying to learn something new when you're over 40. From what I'm learning later in life, it's actually a good phase, right? Because it's a challenge, really a challenging phase. See, that's a cut type of stoicism, high level thinking that makes you such an interesting guy, Jam.

When you just got back from India, how was that? That was a whirlwind, fast, great business trip. It's pretty awesome too, because like being a traveler, like you can go travel places and see the sights and be like kind of a spectator. But when you're like, have business or things to do or common goals with people there, it's really interesting. You know, like we went, we worked with five factories there. I've been doing this for a long time and I know how fashion works in general, but like seeing this raw materials being started and seeing like the intention we're trying to work with, with doing the best practices, whether it's with your employees or with the product, like this one factory provides the majority of our, and I'm not trying to sound like an infomercial here, provides the most of the cottons we use.

He is zero waste. He runs all his electricity off solar and wind. And he was just a great guy. And everywhere you go, you walk into there feeding us food. And we're just in different places, in different doors and meeting different people that you went in if we just went on a trip and we're going to see the Taj Mahal, they're going down to the beaches at Gullah. And then, you know, we ended up hosting a dinner for, you know, all of our factories. So it was like 30 people there. And I was, I'm giving speeches to all these, these Indian people, which is pretty unique. They have so many different cultures within their cultures, because it's such a land of real different religions and beliefs.

So yeah, it's just a crazy place. And I didn't get sick. That's like my biggest thing when I'm there. Right. Because the first time I went, I was in the hospital for three days. Sure. Yeah. It happened. It happened. No, it's the cleansing, right? I jumped in the Ganges. I guess it was my cleansing. Yeah, that's a full cleansing. It was gnarly. Speaking of cleansing, there's a tub in your backyard that is always sitting at around 38 degrees, maybe 42 on a warm day. You're really into the cold plunging. You converted me into a cold plunger. Now I've got my own setup at home. I had never heard of it before meeting you.

How did you discover that? Why do you keep doing it? I mean, that was my first question, right? It was just like, why, why would you subject yourself to that? That sounds horrible. It does. It is. It is. It isn't. It isn't, right? Yeah. This has turned into kind of more of an interview for about than a free-flowing tub. And we're skipping over a lot of phases in life, but that's fine. No one wants to hear the whole history. Cold plunging. The end of it is, man, I mean, what do you think? How do you feel when you get out of the cold plunge? No matter how many times I do it, I still don't want to do it when I am just like staring at it and going, I know this is good for me.

I know it has all these health benefits. I know I'm going to feel awesome when I get out. I'm going to feel alert, ready to take on the day. It's good for inflammation. It's good pre-workout, post-workout. I know all the benefits. And yet when I look at that, the plunge or your tub or the barrel that I've got in my backyard, I just go, this is going to suck. And it does suck. But a minute into it, it's suddenly like things just calm down and get quiet. And you're so focused on that present moment and it's almost meditative. And then when you get out, the benefits last for far longer than that short time you spent in the cold.

And really, it's that first minute or so that is the worst part. And you're talking hours of benefits afterwards. And so that's why I keep doing it. Right. You labeled a lot of like a logistical or logical reasons or factual reasons on why it's good. But like, I mean, the feeling, right? Do you ever have those days yet? Now that you have it more accessible than when it was just in my backyard, even though I did tell you just come in and use it, right? Where you're like, Oh, I'm a little hungover or it's been a little hot or I'm not feeling so right and go, wow, I know it'll change that. And just then crave it or want it and go to it.

Have you experienced that yet? Yes. So change your day, change your mood, change the whole deal. Yes. Okay, good. That's good. The genesis of that for me is I think just in general trying to stay fit as you get older. And I'm not like a workout guy per se. It's like fitness, small tweaks. I guess I'm not an endurance guy. You know, I don't do long runs. I don't do gym stuff, but try to keep enough strength and then the mental challenge. And I think how I got turned on to it was vice, did a piece on him. And my brother lived in Holland for a long time. And he's Dutch. And he talked like a couple of my Dutch friends.

We're talking to him off. We're off. Yeah. I know. He talked like one of my Dutch friends is a little wild, too. He reminded me of him. So I'm like, Oh, and then I started listening to him a little more and the breathing is what got me first. I think people are fascinated by the cold. But I think the breathing with the cold, the breathing kicking yourself into meditation, I know you have experience with meditation. But I've always wanted to try to meditate. And that's exactly what you shouldn't be doing, try to meditate. Right. So it's like that is a tool or maybe a crutch to kick into meditation.

When I started doing that breathing and then being in Asia, Asia, it's super common. Then when you go in a hotel or a spa, they have a hot pool, a cold pool, sauna. So we were we got stuck in Taiwan for a couple days when a volcano exploded and Bali were in the stand in the hotel, they have hot and cold tubs. The gym I would go to in Bali to maintain kind of my fitness and stuff, hot and cold tubs. So I just got more into it. Russian spa opened down the street from our place in Bali. And I was like, after surfing before surfing, you know, just general maintenance of health, I always say I love a lazy man's workout, you know, it's like a massage hot cold.

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of a lazy man's workout. Yeah, that was a that was kind of the genesis of it. So I took his course online. I do regret not seizing the day and going doing it over in Poland. When they walk up the hill, I don't know if you know, they provided those courses. And it was really small then. So Wim Hof guided them all now they have big groups that do it. So probably lose that personal touch. I did go to one of his things he had here in LA. For me, it was just like, yeah, it's tough. Even I went in this morning, I was like, I don't know how long I was in there, but I was like, I don't want to be in here.

But it's like, I'm jet lagged from India. Boom. Didn't even think twice. Wake up straight in there. Maybe that's why it's harder to like half a sleep at eight o'clock. Usually I wake up at six, six 30. And I was like, wait, get the, how am I going to get the grog off? I'm going to jump in the cold. It's going to change my day. I'm going to be wide awake. Nothing coffee can do. I enjoy a coffee too. But it's a total, total different thing. So I think the holistic part of it, you know, like eat well, breathe, meditate, exercise, and go in the cold. And the cold is teaches so many things to make your body feel good and it's a challenge every day.

It's pretty much the hardest thing you're going to do every day. It is a massive mental challenge each time. Yeah. I've been doing it a long time. Like this morning, I got in there and I'm like, fuck, this cold. I'm in my skin. Yeah. I was thinking, why do I have so damn cold? Should I turn it up? I wonder how cold mixes should I walk up to nips? Because your ice melts in yours, right? Or does they? Oh, you put the filter in so it doesn't maintain a certain I don't have to put ice in it. Oh, nice. Yeah. Oh, you're you're going to love this setup, man. It's a little hack. And you saw on your deck out there.

Well, I saw somebody with a plunge, which I think that brand is awesome. They're putting out a rad product. But then I looked online on the chiller that they use and it blew my mind because I thought, well, that's the same chiller. I was looking at it for my do it yourself version with the barrel. And that's what really motivated me. So it's like, this would be the exact same thing. Right. Essentially. And then watch some more videos, put the thing together and got to give a shout out to Matt DeRuder, signs and services out in Stanton, California. They do amazing. You made it some rad breaks. It's like three or four plugs or a had drops.

Yeah. None of them for myself though. So you did a test prep group or one, right? We're going to do the test to see if you can get me out of the seven sixties. Oh, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. One out of four. I'm still spreading the love. And Matt had the barrel and he was dumping ice in it whenever he wanted to do it and just said it was a massive pain in the ass to go get the ice from the grocery store and haul it back. It's expensive. Yeah. If you get four bags of ice, it's like 25, 30 bucks. Yeah. Because I've been there. It was so less accessible here. They have like a Korean spa off the 22 and it's separated by men and women and dudes are walking around naked and you just, it's like a dong fest.

But it was like for a while, it was the only place I could go jumping the cold. It was pretty easy. They had the other place I took you to in LA. That's a Russian one. Yeah. That place is nice. Yeah. But I was doing the cold. So I'd go to Bali and be consistently like every other day, hot colds, come back here. And it was like the winter jump in the water, which isn't that cold, but it's nice. You can definitely feel the chill or do ice in my bath. And then it's crazy to see it evolve, you know, see these things evolve. And I met that guy Bill who's doing renew therapy. So I'll plug his his things.

Yeah. At the time I was looking at people were doing there was a super high end one out at that time. Or there was the freezers, which make a lot of sense. But aesthetically, you know, we didn't want that and it's semi dangerous for the kids. Yep. So he was making a prototype. So I got like, he had his prototype that I went checked out in his office and then he made like 10 prototypes and I got one of the 10. Yeah, it still works great. And he's evolved his business and he's selling a lot. Last time I talked to me, selling like, I think 20 to 30 a month, which is pretty awesome to hear. And that's renew therapy.

Renew therapy, Bill Bichon. Yeah, no, that one is nice. Like your setup is really nice. His new ones are even nicer. But like, yeah, it's doable. He just did it, put the components together. He made it look nice. He knew he was appealing to a certain clientele who wanted something to look good in their backyard to as well, you know, so right. Yeah. To answer your question, I am keeping mine at 47 because I want the wife and kids to get in there too. And I, if it's at 40, it's just putting a higher barrier to entry. That's a good call because I really want ants to get into it. Maybe I should raise it.

I was thinking about that. See, there's a lot of downsides of being a surfer. It treats you to be very selfish. So I've kind of set that up for myself. But yeah, I should put it higher. I want her to get into it because her body aches a little bit. But Jess has been doing it. Maybe that'll help motivate her and just been in plenty of time. She's done it. But maybe it's just too cold. Maybe I should put it up. And I heard and I haven't, you know, I follow Andrew Huberman, which you, you know, all this research is pretty new on some of these things. So there are starting to be studies on the cold and the sauna.

What's the other rondopatric? I think she does some of that stuff too. Well, Huberman was saying under 50 is key. He said a pretty good barometer of it is just what feels really uncomfortable. He's like, there is a point where you get accommodated to the cold, you adjust to it, and then you need to go a little colder. He's like, but as long as it's making you feel uncomfortable, all the mechanisms within your body that are creating all those positive effects are happening. Yeah. So I had it under 45 for three to five minutes. It's pretty much the same benefit as 38. Or even if you go 10 minutes, you're not getting much extra benefit from five to 10, unless you're getting in and you're like, Oh, it's not cold, you know, right?

And maybe you have to stay in slightly longer. Yeah. There was one time it was 37 at your house. We filled it with ice. It was like restarting it. Yes. And I remember going, Oh, well, this is what hypothermia feels like. When I got out in the sauna and you had the sauna is jacked up as high as it could go. And my teeth were just chattering nonstop even after like 20 minutes in the sauna. Like weird feeling when you're in the heat of the sauna, but your body's still cold from the cold tub. Yes. The only reason I do that sometimes is because I guess like listening to him off is controlling that temperature with the breathing.

Have I done this enough to train myself to do that? I've surfed bareback in the winter. I don't know what the water ends up being in California, probably 52. So it's not way warmer than we're talking. But out of about 45 minutes, my amenities get slower. My talking gets slower. But you also did that right away. You were thinking it's all about distance, right? It was like, I think one of the first or second times you came in, you stayed in for like 10, 12 minutes. That was because I watched a whim off video and I got fired up. Could I do that? Any sort of mental challenge? I think I really like poker for the same reason.

Poker with a bunch of good players where you play for six, seven hours is a major mental challenge to stay focused on what's going on. And the iceberg, I think appeals to the same circuits. Can I do this? I know my body can do it, but it's a mental challenge to stay in there beyond what you think is possible. And I like that idea that on a daily or a few times a week, you're setting up yourself for a challenging situation. Can I get over this hurdle? Can I do this thing that I know is going to be hard? That seems like a way to have a good life. I don't know if that applies to everybody else, but it certainly does for me, right?

I like that and it propels me forward into other things in the day, in the week, in the month, in my life to go get excited about taking on challenges. Yeah, and you feel better, right? When you feel better, you eat better, you're nicer to people, you're happier. When you're happier, like general energies get better. So yeah, then good things just happen. It just feels right. Yeah, I love it. It's such a trippy sensation. Who would have thought, right? Just dipping yourself in there. We used to when we when my brother was in Amsterdam, we'd jump in the North Sea in the winter time. And I remember being in Amsterdam, which clouds your brain for obvious reasons when you're there for five, six days.

We're from Southern California and people go jump in these cold tubs and then live in the cold. We're like, fortunate enough, you jump in your cold tub and then it's winter time today and it was 70 degrees out. You could fall out, you know? So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, it's such a good sensation. I think I know you listed out all the benefits people are saying. I just feel in my body feels better than it has earlier in my life when I mean, fortunately, unfortunately, I've had like back problems or hip issues and different stuff and had to work through them in certain ways. That's kind of led to wanting like, I started doing yoga really early on in the piece and these different modalities that made sense for what I was thinking was helping my body and that this is one that's definitely give credit to, you know, still being able.

I mean, I went to El Salvador. Bali, I usually go two months. So it gives me a good amount of time to like get in surf shape, you know? I went to El Salvador and we surf six hours a day for five days straight, you know? So I have to give that up to somewhat to the cold bath, you know? I couldn't train here, don't have time, not that interested in the way it was to do getting that kind of fitness before you go on a trip like that, you know? I remember you saying one time coming out of the cold plunge and you're like, yeah, one thing you can do is just try to let your body warm itself up and the sun's out and it feels nice.

And you're just talking about that feeling and it feels good. And you operate on that modality a lot. Hey, this feels right in your instincts aligned towards that, you kind of run with it. Whereas I got really excited about that same thing when I listened to Huberman and he was like, well, if you want to supercharge the cold plunge, have your body warm itself up afterwards, instead of taking a warm shower or a sauna or even tolling yourself off, he's like, you're going to force your body to warm itself up. That's going to jack up the burning of calories and get your metabolism going. It's like you're still in the plunge when you're out of the plunge.

And for me learning about that and then knowing that that gets me excited and gives me a good feeling. But part of the good feeling is learning about it and knowing that validation, right? That me saying is one thing that you got a doctor saying. I noticed that about you. Do you think that's living a little more and like the feeling, a theory realm versus like so much of the, and I've it's taking me a long time to get there. But before that's why when people go, what does it do for you? I don't list out the facts. I go, it feels good. And every day it's a challenge. Because that right, that's the most important part.

All the other things cool. It does the ABC Brown fat thing or the this thing or that thing. And it's like, but some people need that. So whatever gets you into it, you know, like you could have done it when I told you, but you had needed, I don't have doctor in front of my name. I think that's interesting though. Because so I believe you 100% and that is what inspired me to go down the rabbit hole in the first place. And it just feeling good. I don't trust Hubermanxie as doctor in front of his name because they're way too many charlatans. But I was a research associate at think tank before part of the training with that was learning to separate real science from bro science or just bullshit science, people that are making things up or they're fudging the results.

And everything I can tell about Huberman is that he's really is doing the work. And so I trust the science behind what he's saying. It's not necessarily his credentials. Because I don't think critics are worth anything more than the paper. They're great. But he's doing specific research in these modalities that we're interested in too. So that's what makes sense. But do you think like there's so many different things that people believe in and make them feel better. So like is placebo a thing, right? So maybe you want to validate it, but it makes no sense. But someone does it and it makes them feel better.

I think you're a small one. Right? Like if people want to believe something doesn't seem to make that much sense, but it makes them a better person and they have a happier life. Maybe that's a good thing. Totally. And looking into it too deep, you might lessen the placebo effect, which has all these benefits in your life. And so I'm not saying that everybody has to think about stuff the same way I do. For me, it helps send me deeper into stuff and concentrate on it more. But if something's working in your life, great. I say run with it. I think the beauty of the cold, it's fairly instant gratification.

I did the what's the cryo before that one doesn't seem to be as instant gratification. And I heard you got to kind of go like back a bunch of times to kind of eliminate the swine. Where's the cold? You're in the cold and you're out of the cold. And it's like you feel a difference. Yes. Well, to quote a Jim O'Brien is I also trust things that have existed for a long time. The infrared sauna might be just as good as a finish sauna, but people have been doing the old school finish sauna for a really long time. So I'm a little bit more trusting in that. And I'd say the same thing about going in really cold water, which does go back thousands of years that humans have been doing that as it turns out, as opposed to the cryotherapy, which is just this new technology, which may or may not.

I'm not against technology. New technologies are great. With the sauna as I researched infrared, and for what I wanted to do, when it was longer to get hot, I haven't even been in one yet, but the research it took longer to get warm. You know, you had to stay in there 45 an hour, or as a finish 15 minutes, you're sweating. Sometimes I'm struggling to stay in there 15, 20 minutes, which fit my routine better too. And I like the look and the feel of them. And I'm still a little leery on the infrared rays kind of thing. I feel like we have our phone and shit around us enough. I don't know maybe being detached from that is not a bad thing.

One thing that turned me on to the cold too is it's free. I mean, you had to build that thing. Some ice, you can go in the ocean, it's free. Wim Hof for better for worse. I know he's trying to make a living and stuff now, but he wasn't really trying to sell anything. He's like, I'm not your guru. You know, people are like, do I have to, you know, America, everything's attached with something commercial. I do have to buy this to do this or get this to do this. He's like, no, just turn your shower on cold for a while. Oh, just breathe. It's free. Like all this, like kind of going back to the root of freeness.

You don't the border of entries very little. I mean, most people shower and can shower or get access to a cold shower. Right. Yeah. I mean, taking a cold shower is pretty tough too. Yeah. So it's like, you don't necessarily need a cold tub to get there. And to me, that really resonated with me where some of these other things might be really awesome people are doing, but you're like, Oh, you got to sign up for this and buy these five things and do this and it's like, do I really? I don't know. If I need all that shit, right or stuff, maybe it's not shit, maybe it's good stuff too. I don't know.

One of the things that made me really trusting of Wim Hof at the beginning is that it's like, he doesn't have anything to sell. And he's clearly really passionate. He has an infectious energy when he talks about how wonderful the cold is. And his story is powerful. How his wife died. And then he was having suicidal thoughts and he was clearly depressed. And the cold gave him this respite from that because it's really difficult to think about the future or the past when you hit that icy cold water, you are right there in that moment. You can't even escape it. And I think that just like meditation, when you can lock into the present moment, even if it's just for a little while, it does have a really powerful beneficial effect.

I think his true goal was to help people, right? And obviously, everyone's got to survive. So it's some point you sell things. I wish you bring back those brave motherfucker shirts. That's what he had in the beginning. But I noticed as like, he went on Oprah and shit like that, he had to get some of that out. Right. But yeah, there's no present like the present. Yeah. Oh, I didn't, I didn't ever hear that one. Yeah. I just came up with that. Oh, wow. Let's get that on a shirt, Jim. If only you knew somebody owned a clothing company, let's talk about the have hats. I thought it was a really neat idea that you came up with.

Tell us what what that is. What the have hats is, isn't what my normal intention, it has become far beyond what I vision, but maybe I don't dream big enough at the root of it. It was like, I listened to all these podcasts and in every podcast, there's all these little side conversations should go down. And like, it'd be awesome. I think me and you would chat about some, but we weren't necessarily listening the same ones. And yeah, it'd be cool to discuss some of this stuff more and explore it. And what do you guys think? What do your friends think about this? Do you hear this? What do these guys think?

I heard this. Did you hear this? What do you, what's your thoughts on different stuff, you know? And that was at the root of it was, and then your wife had a book group. I was like, Oh, the girls, they got all these plans are on Tuesday every other Tuesday. I'm like, I should try to organize something like that to do this. And that's kind of how it started. It's like, let's pick a podcast and discuss it and go down all those rabbit holes. Right. So we ended up with seven people. Right. Yeah. All listen to the same podcast and then get together to break it down, just like a book club would, but it's a podcast club.

Yeah, not super. We haven't kept it super formal or too many rules, which I think is a good thing. It was just pick a podcast, host it. The conversations have been way more educational, deeper than I ever anticipated. Everyone wants to keep it going as busy as we get and we don't schedule it, but we keep coming back to it. I think we've done seven of us two rounds. So we've done about 14 times. Yeah. Which has been awesome. The last one we had, you know, Hank, when Buffon Beyond made food and the combo on the stoicism was awesome. And Logan had already turned me on to the daily stoic and we've been doing that.

So it's kind of all fit together. There's been a lot more mental health ones than I expected. And that what I guess men's need. I work with all women. So it's kind of nice to, it's nice to have like a guys get together and talk. And also some of those guys, like Patrick and Jason, they always seem like nice guys, but I just meet him at like a barbecue and we just talk about random stuff. So it's like now is opportune. Like here's a subject and I've learned more about those guys and some interesting things, you know, it's been mind blowing, you know, different stuff. You learn about people and their ideas and thoughts.

And I think it pushes everyone. Well, it's a great point you make there where you meet someone at a barbecue or somebody's hanging out in somebody's backyard, whatever it is. There's this social expectation to just keep it light and surface level with people that you don't know very well with the little podcast group that you created. Suddenly the social expectation is that you would have something to say on the subject that was in the podcast. What I've seen is people have opened up way beyond they ever would in a surface level situation. It gives them a forum to share what they really think about stuff.

That's been exciting, transformational. I'm so energized every time we get together and discuss whatever that podcast topic is. I would recommend it for anybody whether that was a women's group, men's group, a mixed group. Yeah. And I know me and you have talked about like, you know, our entrepreneurial brains have gone like not for money making, but like how could we scale this from a perspective of helping people like out of what I say 14 plus talks, I'd say almost every one of them was amazing. And somewhere just there was a couple that stand out that went to other depths or realms we never expected.

But not all groups might be that way, but maybe many more would be. But like guys getting together and discussing stuff instead of like super surface like, do you see that, you know, past other day or that interception or some bullshit in the news, you know, it's like and now with podcasts, there's so much content, so much information. I mean, wonderful stuff. Those, I mean, those are better than many college lectures we've sat through in our lifetime. It's ensuring some of the stuff people bring to the table. So yeah, I mean, I love to try to pod it up or be cool to try to mix it up and do another group with women or, you know, different perspectives on certain podcasts and different things.

Yeah, I mean, I enjoy the whole like why I'm sitting here is it's cool to participate. I haven't done, I think I don't know if I've done a podcast. This might be my first one and just done a couple, but I love the format, right? It's time consuming, right? It's more time and you can get stuck into ones that aren't as good, but they're not as long form as a book. We're burdened down by clips of clips of stuff that we don't know is real or fake or made up or I imagine if politicians had to sit here for two hours and talk to someone they couldn't get around so much bullshit they get into. I don't think master master bullshitters, which there's a lot of people that are, but you know, most of the time you listen to podcasting with someone you're not necessarily hadn't been a fan on, you see a human side of them that you can't deny they're still human whether you disagree with them or they're flawed in certain ways.

When we talk spread the message of it, it reminds me of when Dax Shepard or Russell Brand talk about if there was a way to spread AA to more people that don't necessarily have a substance abuse problem, right? Because there's something so powerful in getting a small group of people together, a few guidelines, but no hard and fast rules and basically the group decides how they want to handle it and people are there to help each other and by association help themselves and are just trying to put something good into the group. Like it's so simple and it's so basic and that's really the power of it.

Right. And we've been really good about exploring ideas, right? No one's come like, I believe this and this is the way, right? Because no one really does know they think they know a lot about something, but who knows who really knows what's true and what's not, you know, it's all these different parameters and things in life and some of these ideas has been cool. And I'm open for disagreement. We've had some of that are challenging the ideas, which is beneficial too. It's not like don't challenge, let everything pass, but it's been very civil and awesome too. Yeah. I think people are more like that than less like that, right?

But our media has formatted like three to five minutes in between commercial breaks for drug companies and they yell at each other over stuff. So no one really gets to sit here and you know, how are you doing? You know, starting it out like, oh, you have two kids. Oh, cool. I got to, you know, like there's probably plenty of stuff they do agree on and then start discussing some of the stuff in the idea screen. Why do you think that way? Oh, because I grew up this way or this came this way and, you know, there's going to be certain things where people are totally still going to disagree, but at least they can explain them in a way that's somewhat rational instead of fuck you, fuck you, you know, right.

Well, and if you're, if the format is three minutes, I mean, if we were going to do our entire podcast group in three minutes, right, I don't even know what we possibly could get a value out of that. And if we needed to create drama for somebody else to watch it and find an interest thing, we would need to have immediate conflict. Right. Because people will tune in to conflict, even if it's not useful to anyone involved. It's so weird, because these news guys are doing, and I get it, they've created a model and they've stuck to it. It seems to be dismantling, but they're running 24 hours and they're replaying this stuff.

So they have enough time to sit down and have like a long forward conversation in a way with someone, you know, but some of those they even do, they really present them and try to get those gotcha moments. They seem like they're trying to have a nice conversation, but they're really trying to like get that gotcha moment so they can put the clip up, you know, somebody seems genuine, some don't. It's interesting. Like Joe Rogan, he says, like, whether format, can you just sit across from that's why I'm enjoying this now we're just sitting here chatting, I haven't really checked my phone, I haven't done anything.

I feel like I'm getting a little reps just talking, sitting here talking to sure, because I think that's one thing I want to prove in as the business grows is better public speaking, you know, people are asking questions, answering questions. It's always been a fear of mine that I've been fighting, giving speeches the last couple years I've gotten a little better at. Yeah, well, it's another challenge you've taken on. Yeah. On the have hats, I also think it was really interesting. You said because people aren't naturally conflict oriented, like what we see on social media in the news, even when you have different, differing viewpoints, if you're sitting there face to face with some people and you get to know them over a period of time, you will give them some grace and listen to their side of the story and come to a new understanding.

I mean, I really do in my heart of hearts feel like America is not nearly as divided as it seems if we could just get more people together in small groups to talk to one another, especially those that we disagree with. Yeah. And there's no competition in it too, right? No one's trying to prove anything or win anything. You're probably in small groups, a lot of the sporting things you do, but like you point out sometimes the parents get a little buck wild at times because they're so passionate about this thing. I don't know that we've had a like a group that someone was going, listen to this podcast, I believe in this, I want you to believe in this too.

It's more like, hey, I've been turned on to this idea of thinking or this strategy. What do you guys think and people have gone, well, I like this part of it. I'm not sure about this or I've tried it or I haven't tried it. Right. Well, and I think back to that one session where there was one person there who'd had the death of a parent and was just opening up about what that experience was like. And then we spent the majority of the session talking about death in our lives and whether it was in the past or fear of losing a parent, it was a really just a powerful conversation that would not have happened individually for me with that the person who brought it up in the first place because I didn't know him on that level.

It wouldn't have happened without the group, right? Because he wouldn't have brought that up individually at a social gathering. And there's no way that the seven of us would have stumbled into it. And yet you created this space with this thing where it's really designed to discuss things that really matter to people. And that really enriches everyone's life that's involved with it. Yeah, it's been amazing. And it's a great format for it. I think part of the other drive was like, and just really good when she goes to parties, dig it in with people getting into stuff. But I'm not I keep it surface.

Maybe it's a societal norm or I don't open up or I don't know what to say. But it's like nice to have like a subject. I heard a good one the other day though, too, because I always thought it was so weird. You asked people what they do and like, why are we so defined by what we do? I know we spend a lot of time doing it. But that doesn't necessarily dictate who a person is at the contest. Some people could be working this, but they're really into this or that character doesn't align with what you preconceived this certain job to be, you know, I think I'm going to try this next time I'm in a social setting.

Instead of going, Oh, what do you do is like, if you had a day off, what would you do? Love it. Right. That is a good one. Really didn't then that would tell you about someone if they started their day with a bike ride or they went and visited their mom who's here, it probably lead into more conversations. Yeah. Well, Mike chicks at me high who was one of my heroes and mentors. That was one of his life hacks where he said, if I want to get to know someone, I don't need to know what they do for a living or what the highlights on their resume are. I want to know what they do with their free time.

That is the most insightful thing I can find out. And you just posed it in a single question. If you had a day off, totally free could do anything. What would it be? Right. I like that. It's good to ask yourself too, right? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes when you're happens quick, oh, wait, I'm all the kids are now. Wait, I just four hours. What am I going to do? Right. Well, I had a day off today and I was pretty excited to do this. Nice. So I feel like I'm not wasting my time right now. Yeah. But it's wasting time, a bad thing too. It's weird because being in the structure of Southern California and the pace and it's like, I always feel this obligation to go in the office.

And even though I can work free hours, it's like spend my hour or some times in there. And sometimes, wait, I could do this over here. Maybe it's more inspiring or do this or mix this up. And I do that sometimes and I find my day's role better. It's weird. Yeah. Well, and having an open, unscheduled day, I don't think is wasting time or sitting around by yourself. I don't think it's wasting time. I do know if I were right now, instead of sitting here talking to you, I spent two hours scrolling through an Instagram feed. 100%. I would 100% feel like I had wasted my time at the end of that. Yes. These are the hardest time for me, the dinner after dinner to bedtime.

That's the time my energy level is usually pretty low too. So it's like, I can waste some time in that period. The mornings I'm super motivated afternoons can be if I less I have a lot. But now I've been so busy, I don't have time to not do much. Then yeah, what would I do in a day? I mean, that's again, the tricky part about surfing, right? It's all contingent on the way. I was like, yeah, I'd love to go for surf. I this stage, I like to surf when the waves are good. I don't surf as much when it's not, but it's always good to jump in the water. That's for sure. Get a paddle or swim or something, do something active for sure.

Exciting and active. What was the whole talk? The flow state doing something you're proficient at but pushing your level, right? It's getting into flow. So like, I love to try to figure out a way to kick into flow state. So how do you do that, right? Jump in the cold. I don't know if that's flow state but challenging yourself. Surfing clearly for you takes you to that flow state and surfing played a outsized role in the creation of that book, all the research behind it. I mean, he said, he originally was going to call the book which started the whole study of flow and psychology. He was originally going to call it the Autotelic Experience.

It tells you what kind of guy Mike is. Yeah, I don't think many people are going to buy that. No, no, of course not. It really made me laugh. And then it was like, well, how did you come up with the name flow? Because that's a rad name. Some surfers said it. Right. Oh, really? Yeah. He said, the surfers said it, I was just in flow. And he said, when I heard it, he's like, I thought about it later that day. I was like, that's better than the Autotelic Experience. That's a percentage. Just slightly. Right. Because it's a tricky, like people are, I want to be in the flow state, right? I don't even know what the flow state is, but it sounds good.

I want to be in the flow state. Right. Yeah. That's radical. Yeah. So that's what you do with your free day. I like that. Well, let's see. I had what? 45 questions. Holy shit. You're prepped. lined up. I asked two of them that were planned. Right. And so I think it's safe to say, to get to this list of 45, Jim, you were just going to have to have you back. All right. And the people are going to demand it a regular Thursday or something. This period of time is awesome. I was like coming down here, tired because I'm a little jet lagged. I went to bed at three last night. I chatted more than I thought I'd chat.

I'm always shocked by people who can ramble so much, but I think I went on some decent rambles there. All right, Jim, you're going to leave us with. I love how you're speaking. How big is your audience? The audience right now is. I mean, I didn't know that you're going to share this with anyone. There's you. There's me. There's my mom. If there's one book, you could recommend, what would it be? That would help people live a more interesting life. Let's go with that theme. Let's give you a theme rather than just one book here. Interesting life. Well, I think, again, I look at things holistic, right?

Because there's so many components. There's so much of like, follow your dreams. Just dream and do it. And that's all fine. But you do have to put some logistics behind that, right, too. And that's what I've been challenged with. Like, how do you dream and have the logistics and work both sides of those brains? One, you marry someone who just dreams and you jump on the wagon. But I have the dreams as well. So I think putting all those elements together is helpful. So if you can, are fortunate enough to have a brain that works and or train your brain to work in different spaces. So like rich dad, poor dad's a good one for basic money.

If you don't have any sense of budgeting and just kind of understanding money and how you can use it. So you can set a dream and still eat and do the things you want to. And then, I mean, Dalai Lama, Art of Happiness is an awesome book on just basic contentment. And you know, and then the barbarian days, I feel like such a gift to surfing and seeing how he lived his life. Because often from the surf industry, you don't have someone at such high level skills of writing the kind of banked all this, these experiences and then wrote them later in life, you know? Yeah. And it's pretty special to have someone.

I don't know if you read that book, barbarian. And it's a travel story, you know? So like, I think it's pretty relatable to so many people. So if you're interested in travel as part of how to live a interesting life, that's definitely a good one. I mean, I can only speak on things I'm interested in. So I don't know how to have an interesting life if you're, I don't know, into car racing or something like that, you know? Actually, I've been watching that Formula One that sounds pretty interesting. They make it very sound very interesting. Maybe watch that show if you're into car racing. But yeah, you made me think of when you said that just now on the blending the two between having some financial understanding in order to achieve your big dreams and that there's a lot of hard work involved, you made me think of the art of war.

No, the war of art. The war of art. That's another good one too. And all of it comes down to getting after it, right? Like, so I do also believe like, if you're interested in something, you got to get after and do it and work at it. And if it's hopefully like, and every day, she's like, I love my job. I mean, we have challenges, different stuff. There's just certain parts of the job are just owning a business that isn't pleasant at times. It just comes up. But in general, she's doing a lot of stuff she really loves, which is awesome to say. For me, it's been a little different because my thing is always flexibility, free time, no be your own boss.

So that's not like, it's a means to an end. So do a lot of this stuff. Sometimes I enjoy some of the challenges. Sometimes it feels like work, but I know that work is going to lead to something else I want, whether it's just going on a trip or having the freedom to come here at five o'clock or four o'clock clock out of the office or earlier, you know, because I can't, right? Yeah. The war of art. There's so many little good books. There's so many of these oddly self-help books though, or what I know, there's a fine line to weed through the good one. So I think that is definitely a good one. Course in Miracles is a good book too.

Oh, I know that one. It's more of kind of on a spiritual kind of think it, think it one. Do a lot of Jodus Spenza becoming supernatural. To answer your question, one thing I learned a long time ago was like, if you're going to set your goals, set your goals out and break them down by different categories, you know, like career, financial, health, mind, family, whatever you think it is, religion, spiritual, and then separate those out and have all those goals together, right? Because you're a whole person, right? If you push one rock way down so far, those other ones could suffer and those all kind of got to work together.

And at least for my experience here, those working together make a better experience while you're here. At least it seems to be for me, you know, so, because you see that, you see someone super successful in one thing and a lot of the other things lacking and you can even feel that in your own life. Oh, I've been so focused on this one thing and I haven't focused on this and, you know, like every flower needs a little water. Yeah. Yeah. And not everyone those succulents don't, you don't water those, do you? No. All right. Well, on that note, Jim, it's been a pleasure. Right on. Thanks for having me.

Well, I'll tell you that I know our listener enjoyed it too. I actually enjoyed this one. You see, there we go. All right. Maybe you can get just to listen to it. I fucking see you guys. Thanks. Thank you for listening to the Nick Standlea podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate five stars and leave a review. The best way to support this podcast is to visit our sponsors in the description. Have an excellent day.