The Detective Who Took Down 'Dirty John' Meehan

And this is John. This is dirty John. >> This is John Mi. My plant that is always on the right side of my front steps has been moved to the left side. What is the police officer going to say? Put your plant back. But if the woman were to say, every day for the last 30 days, he's emailed her a 100 times in 10 days, texted her 50 times in 3 days. He would send her pictures from being outside of her house. He had taken a piece of paper from inside of her passport and left it inside her house. This is shocking. There are reports on file, but nothing was ever done. And the difference, I think, is I pursued it.

>> I sat down with Julia Bowman, the detective who arrested Dirty John. If you think you know all the details of this story, trust me, you don't. >> Somebody's calling from Orange County Jail and they want to speak with the detective. you have somebody who's in custody who's trying to put a hit out on a Lagouna Beach detective. And I said, "What's the name of the detective?" He said, "Julia Bowman. Do you know her?" "I am her, >> the Nick Show." >> Okay. So, how did John Mian come on your radar to begin with? >> Okay. I would say, so I've been a police officer for 17 years. I think next week, 17 years.

I started my career at Lagouna Beach. I was in patrol for two years and then was tapped to go to detectives. I say that because I put in for property crimes and then was called by the detective sergeant and he was like, "You didn't really want property crimes, right? It's like I don't I'll I will be the janitor. Whatever you want me to do." And he said, "Well, we're going to give property crimes to this other guy, but we really think you'd be good for crimes persons, but that spot won't be open for six months. like, "Can you wait six months, but we'd like you to do crimes persons." Mind you, I'd only been a cop for two years.

Like, I'm still learning how to be a good patrol cop. And it's like, now they're asking me to be crimes persons. I'd had a couple good >> and crimes persons is a detective. >> Yeah. Crimes against. So, uh, you know, you have general crimes detectives and then you have specialties in terms of like the types of crimes you investigate. So you have property crimes like burglary um like uh vandalism you know things crimes against property. Then you have uh fraud. So that's like you know insurance and banks and um that kind of stuff. Then you have juvenile crimes. So anything that happens with the juvenile.

You can have like sex crimes detectives, domestic violence detectives. Well, at Laguna, we had uh property crimes, fraud, juvies, and then crimes against persons. Crimes against persons is uh assault, sexual assault, domestic violence, robbery, and homicide. So I at two years on now had the cream of the crop of all of the coolest cases essentially like the the property crimes guy would have hundred cases on his desk fraud 200 juvie's like the headache of high school kids and I would have like eight cases but they're all going to be lengthy jury trials and people going to jail for 20 years like it was kind of a dream career with only two years on.

So part of the daunting task of that was that's a lot of different types of crimes to investigate and you don't really gain that type of expertise in the police academy, you know, like specifically to all those crimes. You get the like the elements of the crimes uh but nothing >> nothing about exactly how to investigate that. So things like uh stalking or missing persons um elder abuse, you know, I didn't have a lot of specific uh training on that. So in my first year as a detective, I had over 300 hours of training. I did 80 hours homicide school, 40 hours domestic violence, 40 hours sex assault.

My first cases as a detective, I had a serial rapist with 11 victims, which just not kidding you, two weeks ago that he was finally sentenced. >> Wow. >> And this was year 15 years ago, right? Like crazy. So, so I had really really big cases and I felt like I kind of had to learn really quickly how to investigate a lot of things. The reason I tell you this is I uh sought out that type of training because I was really worried about not knowing how to do it. Um and one of the the trainings that I sought out was a 4hour stalking class at Seal Beach PD and uh went to this 4-hour stalking class and they had investigators speaking about stalking.

They had victims of stalking that spoke to the class. Um, it was not a crime that I'd experienced personally and so it was it was very eye opening. But stalking is a felony and I think it's kind of an under appreciated felony because it's hard to uh it's hard to uh identify and really the victim has to be an advocate. The victim has to tell you things beyond what you would have just thought was a property crime or you would have just thought was a you know a civil issue. So, I had attended a stalking class. Then I had a stalking case and um that came to us as a vandalism. Uh the detective sergeant sent me this vandalism case and I kicked it back to the detective charge and said, "I don't do property crimes." And he said, "Well, the officer didn't ask her if she knew who did this.

can you just check on to see if she had an idea of who did this and then you can kick it to property if it's not like a a you know some type of domestic violence issue. What had happened was her ex-boyfriend had super glued the keypad to her garage door >> so she could not access her garage door. Right. >> But it which is really random and comes off as vandalism. >> Yeah. >> So I end up reaching out to the victim and I said, "Do you think you know who did this?" and she said, "Oh, it's 100% my boyfriend and he's been stalking me for two year or he's been doing these things for she didn't say stalking, but he's been doing these things for 2 years.

He, you know, drives by my house every day and honks. He has a PO box in Lagona Beach so that he's nearby. uh he broke into my house and stole the title to my car and and uh he posted a video on YouTube. So when someone tries to get to my website, they find a wh a video of me on YouTube dancing for him as a Christmas present. I'm like what? >> Yeah. >> Like what? Why haven't you said anything? I'm just thinking maybe one day he'll go away. Like maybe this will be done. So I take the case and I'm like I know what this is. I went to a 4-hour class on this. This is shocking. >> Yeah. So we arrest him.

He goes to jail. He goes to jail for two years. >> And this is John. >> This is not Johnny. >> This is not this is okay. >> So but but so I'd had that case, right, where it was like, >> hey, this is like kind of a big crime and they can go away for a long time for this. And I also don't think people know what it is, >> right? >> So fast forward to April of 2013. And and before we do that, I mean, this is like >> we've already got >> Superglue, Stalker. We know about John Mian is coming soon. Serial rapist all happening in beautiful Laguna Beach. >> Laguna Beach. I will tell you, Laguna Beach is it's a there's a lot of drama there.

There was the I when I went to domestic violence uh investigations training, 40hour class, I was the youngest person in the room. I was the newest detective. I had more domestic violence experience as a like a street cop than anyone else in the room. And these were people from all over the state. >> Lagona was just kind of this hotbed of like dramatic reactions to things. And I'm not saying that as like a way to downplay domestic violence, but it's like >> uh you know, wife thinks her husband's cheating, throws his clothes out of the upstairs window. When he goes to retrieve his clothes, she tries to run run them over with the car.

That was the type of domestic violence we were getting. Yeah. >> I'm telling you, that's not >> normal domestic violence that you learn in the police academy. Um, lot lots of sexual assault, unfortunately, lots of date rape, but like it was just a very busy place to work with like the most unique cases. I would have to on a homicide or a suspicious death, I would have to present to the coroner's office and then they would do the autopsy. So if it was like a really weird one, you know, they would we would sit in this room. I would have a PowerPoint. I would say like this is how the case evolved and every single time they'd be like only in Lagona.

Like none of this makes any sense. Like you and I could sit here for eight hours and I could tell you the most insane stories of being a detective in Lagona. Like it was just >> like I have been on national TV shows for multiple cases like not just Dirty John, you know? It's like and then even when asked about one of the homicides I was on at the end of the the interview, she stopped recording and she goes or she had said while we're recording, so is this the craziest case you ever had? And I was like, "No." And so she stopped recording and she goes, "All right, what's the craziest case you ever had if this isn't the craziest case?" It's like, "Dang, only in Laguna, right?" So >> what what is the crazy is the craziest case Dirty John or is it something else?

>> No. Oh, no. That's the thing. That was It was not that. So, my my involvement in Dirty John, I absolutely had a gut feeling about how evil he was, and it was not until the very end of the story that my gut feeling was confirmed. That was confirmed for me. Um, the craziest case that I ever had was a so I had two different missing person cases that I solved to homicides and um and one of them has been on dine 2020. The murderer in that case was had the fastest um jury decision in Orange County history for life without possibility of pat parole. The other one has never been on TV and it's the craziest case I ever had and it's a homicide uh a missing person turned homicide where he was ultimately killed by a member of the Mexican mafia and he was uh stored in a freezer in oh in ohhigh like a crazy crazy case right so so it was just a I would say I mean without saying anything uh to disparage my victims like it was a really fun job, you know, like I got to do real police work.

I got to actually help my victims. I put a lot of people in prison. Uh we had a home invasion robbery where our the robbers um pistol whipped the victims. They went away for 25 years, you know, on gang enhancements. We had to surveil them in Nickerson Gardens and the bounty hunter bloods. Like it was it was just a fun time. And the other side of that was at the time my boyfriend was another detective. He was a narcotics detective, but our detective unit was so small. There's only like five or six of us. So every case that I worked, he worked. Every case that he worked, I worked. I was always the girlfriend to whoever our criminal employment was when they were doing their drug deals there.

You know, he was >> So you'd go undercover for him? >> Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean cuz you know no one ever suspects the girl you know to be the cop. So I was the girlfriend often in cars with uh drug dealers where we were working out buys or um you know it was just really fun time like the stories that we tell and now our kids >> Sounds like a blast. >> Well and our kids like sitting around the kitchen table at dinner you know like they'll ask like the most innocuous question like oh what do what do people eat for dinner in jail? And then it'll get the two of us kind of going back and forth to like reminiscing a little bit.

And then we look at these three young faces like what a life we had before, you know, our our nights became making spaghetti. Like it's just like it was a really it was a really fun time to be a cop. But >> Jesse and I have never had a date where one of us went undercover with a drug dealer. >> That's right. Yeah. That's not normal. Um, but it was it was very much a part of our uh our young dating life. Yeah. Yeah. And that I so that was that's fun too. And it's funny like when I have phone calls about Dur John where they're you know um typically my husband's in the background correcting me >> cuz he remembers it better than I do.

But yeah, so it was a it was a really it was fun. I would also say like the justice system it's it's tough because you you do your best you bring someone to the to the court system to to face the consequences of their action and then a lot of times it doesn't work out the way that you hoped like even in this case like he only served 200 and some days in jail you know things like that where uh justice doesn't feel like it's served and I find that a lot of times in sex assault in domestic violence. It's just it's really tough. And so there's, you know, there's a hard side to it, too. But um as I look back and now I mean I've been out of patrol for years.

I haven't arrested someone in a long long time. You know, I don't get to be a detective um anymore. And I look back fondly like that was the best job I ever had. Like if I could just go be a detective. like it's you do truly feel like you you are dealing with the worst of the worst. You are you're arresting the villains, which I think, you know, why did we all become cops? It's to to put bad guys in jail, you know, and you truly it's not just breaking up a bar fight or something or somebody who's a petty theft, you know, something like that. >> Dealing with a noise complaint because a party's too loud.

>> Yes. Yeah. There's a lot of those in Laguna, too. or someone someone cut your tree >> cuz it was hanging over their yard, right? >> Those would turn into full-on fights with like, you know, tree shears. So, yeah, it uh but no, it was a it was a really good job. So, >> well, and there was a date that you mentioned that's when I cut you off. >> So, April 3rd of 2013. So, at that point, I think I had been a detective now for two years. And um I was sitting at my desk and a um female police officer, patrol officer, came to my desk and said she just wanted my opinion on a a a call that she had been working.

A woman came to the station to report that her ex-boyfriend was harassing her and extorting her for money. the female police officer had told her um you know tell him to stop contacting you, block his phone number. She also said she would contact him and say, you know, please stop contacting this female. >> But when she did that, he kind of doubled down and started now threatening and harassing the female police officer. >> Oh wow. >> And continuing to harass this female. So then the um the female got a restraining order, but they couldn't find him to serve. >> It seems like a really dumb move as a criminal.

Like why would you start to harass the police officer? >> Yeah. But so I think that speaks to his entire psyche is that >> he had no fear of women police officers. you know, he he also felt very confrontational with women that told him what to do and because so they filed a a restraining order. Um he did not he did not they couldn't find him to serve it and even though they emailed it to him and he acknowledged receipt of it in email, he didn't stop contacting both the female police officer and the female uh his ex-girlfriend. So, the detective sergeant reached out to him and said, "This is your uh your second warning.

Do not contact your ex-girlfriend. Do not contact this officer." >> He never responded to the male detective sergeant. >> And then continued to harass the female police officer. Wow. And the his ex-girlfriend to the point where now this female police officer was feeling afraid for her own safety. >> Yeah. And so then she came to me and said, "I don't is there even a crime here? Is there anything that can be done?" And I'm sitting there, mind you, remember my super glued. And I said, >> "That's stalking." Like he's stalking her. >> You're telling me that he's emailed her, >> you know, a hundred times in 10 days.

He's texted her 50 times in 3 days. She's told him to stop. She's filed a restraining order. Yeah. He had at that point he had been following her. He would send her pictures from being outside of her house. He had taken a a a piece a paper from inside of her passport um and left it inside her house when her house had been locked. Like he's like things that are clearly like I am following you, right? Um >> and this is John. This is dirty dog. >> This is John Mi. So at that point I told the female officer, uh no this is stalking like give it to me. >> It's incredible that you had a police officer that I mean because you spoke to earlier on how stalking's not fully appreciated as a crime or that there's something you can do about it that you even had a police officer who wasn't aware.

>> Yes. So, and that is when I've now spoken about this case, you know, when I was asked to go on Dr. Phil or on oxygen for their documentary. I said, "The only way I'm going to go on your documentary is speak to this is to share that stalking is a crime and all the ways that you need to be your own advocate and law enforcement will help you. You must report these things because I do think that typically it's under reportported, but also um the victims don't know that that it's a crime." And the way that it was described to me in that first stalking class that I went to and then the way I would describe it to victims and other cops is it's like so a woman calls a police and says um my my plant that is always on the right side of my front steps has been moved to the left side.

What is the police officer going to say? So they've got four calls pending. They've got a a traffic collision pending. They've got a stabbing in another area. They've got lunch wait in their car, right? What are they going to say? They're going to say, "Uh, put your plant back. I don't bring your plant inside. Put up security cameras." Right? Like, what are they going to say? That's that's not a crime just to move your plant, right? >> But if the woman were to say, "I have documented the last 30 days. Every day for the last 30 days, my plant is being moved from the right side of my steps to the left side.

And I know it's my boyfriend, my ex-boyfriend, who is signaling to me that I should know that he knows that I'm here and that I know that he's been here and he's moved this plant. >> Does that change things? Right. Like that you have a record for the last 30 days of he's been doing this thing. Yeah. Or my my ex-boyfriend won't stop calling me. Well, block your ex-boyfriend. Okay. Well, why is he continuing to call you? What is he saying in those messages? And I think that we don't get a lot of that training in the academy since taking that class in I think it was 2012. I took that stocking class.

I've never found that class again. >> H >> that was what 15 years ago, something like that. 14 years ago. So I I do think that it's it's underappreciated and a lot of times it looks like a civil issue. Oh, he says that I owe him money. He says that um or he took the title to my car or he won't give me my property back. Oh, that's a civil issue. We can't help you. Right? >> Which that may all be true, right? But in the totality of the circumstances, you can say like this all of this together represents stalking behavior. If someone texts you five or seven times in a row and you've told them, "Don't text me anymore." and they continue to text you, they've committed the misdemeanor crime of annoying and harassing phone calls, text messages, that's a misdemeanor in California that doesn't get you very far.

Right. Right. >> Well, if they're doing that plus they keep showing up everywhere that you are and you they leave you notes all the time and they would >> you start adding those things together. Well, now you have a felony. Now you have something that kind of has some teeth to it. But I don't know that that's necessarily something that both the victim and the police officer know to be looking for. Um, so that was my message anytime that I was pursued to speak on this because it seems like a lot of times he's such an interesting villain that it's that people romanticize or kind of, you know, it sensationalize it.

I mean, he doesn't actually need any sensationalizing, but my thing was it's uh like this is a crime. Advocate for yourself. But also, um, and I'll get into kind of why she came to us and what happened for her to meet him, but I mean, the other thing that I think gets misinterpreted with Dirty John is that >> uh, oh, well, these were just susceptible women. these these women were um either like you know Orange County socialites or they they they you know weren't savvy enough they were too naive. No, that there he was he he was a master at manipulation and kind of lovebombing someone to the point where they would literally turn over everything of importance in their life to him.

And then the bait and switch would come where now he's harassing and threatening them and taking everything from them. And he did it so many times. And the difference I think between me and the other police officers where this was reported to them is I pursued it and a lot of these other officers did not. So many other women had come forward in the past >> cuz he had been doing this for a very long time before it showed up on your desk. There were a lot I mean a trail of a lot of women. >> So this was 2012. >> I know that he had restraining orders against him in like 2005 2007. He had reported it or it had that his ex-girlfriends had reported it to the Orange County Sheriff's Department to Irvine PD like there there are reports on file but nothing was ever done.

And the pattern of behavior is very similar to what was seen in our case. And that was what was interesting to a lot of these news outlets was, you know, all these women have reported it, but no police officers ever pursued it until a female detective got involved. You know, like what what about me caused me to think that this was more than just that. And I think it's that I had gone to that stalking class, that I'd had a previous stalking case. And also, I think I just wasn't willing to let something go. You know, it's like I I have the time, I have the attention, I have the patience. um and he seemed like a really bad guy.

So in this case, like what what ended up happening, the reason this woman came to the police department was so she came to the police department in April of 13. In April of 2012, she had brain surgery. >> Okay? >> She had a tumor in her brain. She's at Kaiser in LA. She wakes up from brain surgery and a man is standing over her bed in scrubs. He tells her his name is John. He's her anesthesiologist. He gives her his phone number. He asks for her phone number. She gives him her phone number, her uh soon to be ex-husband's phone number, her son's phone number. He says, "If you have any issues after surgery, give me a call." >> Yeah, >> that was John Mayan.

John Mihan was not an anesthesiologist at that hospital or anywhere else. Like if that doesn't shake you to your core of like, >> no, these women are not naive. These women are not easy prey. They're not just looking for someone to to love them. >> No, she was a a very vulnerable patient in a hospital bed. And to this day, we don't know how he was able to get in there except that he's he was such an incredible con artist, >> right? >> And he he >> and he had the clothes. >> He had the clothes, but also so what we know of his history and this is all stuff I learned much later was he was trained as a nurse.

It's like a nurse assess asticist or something. So it's not an anesthesiologist. It's like the the the assistant to that person. Okay. He had gone to school for that. His wife um his his ex-wife um was licensed. He had learned all the lingo. He was very intelligent and he could he could uh stand in that role and and be very convincing. So he met her, our victim, in that setting. Several weeks later, she is starting to have some dizziness postsurgery. She remembers she has this card from her anesthesiologist. Yeah. >> So, she calls the anesthesiologist, John, >> and he's like, "Oh, I don't really know.

Um, you should probably call your surgeon on that, but I've really enjoyed talking to you. I have a Plenty of Fish account." And she says, "Oh, I have a Plenty of Fish account." He goes, "Let's meet again. Find me on Plenty of Fish." So, they meet on Plenty of Fish. And which I mean, I don't Is that even a thing anymore? I don't like this was back in the This is the e-harmony days. I don't know that people do that anymore, >> but it was a dating app at the time. >> Yes. Back in the day, this was a dating app. So, they find each other on Plenty of Fish. He says, "Hey, let's reintroduce ourselves, you know, on Plenty of Fish." And then, um, they had their first date, I think, on January 19th of 2013.

So they met at the hospital in April of 12 and January 13 they went on a date like in-person date and that's how quickly I mean they even say like all you know these um cyber predators what is the first thing they do they move you to another site right like which so he essentially did that with her of moving her from oh that's a great question you should ask your surgeon right but I really like your voice I really like talking to you know you said you're separated from your husband Do you want to meet on Plenty of Fish? >> Yeah. >> So, they go on their first date. Um, and during that meeting, he asks her a lot of personal information.

He learns from her that she's incredibly wealthy. She's Brazilian. She's from Brazil. She speaks English, but it's it's kind of a very thick accent, broken English. Um, she is a writer. She has written a book in Brazil that she has come to to California to turn into a movie. She was an agent and consultant and all that. >> She lives with her ex her husband and they're separated but they're still living together in Palace and they have a very good relationship. She has or their kids live in Brazil. Um she during the course of that conversation he asks her about her finances and she says she has millions of dollars in Brazil in Brazil and Italian bank accounts but she doesn't really have access to it in California because her husband had told her there's like the the taxes to transfer it or the fees to transfer it to a a United States bank were so high.

So, she doesn't really have access to a lot of her money and she was trying to figure out how to do that. So, John Mi told her that she should transfer all of the money to his bank account and he would not incur the fees if it went to his bank account. >> Right? >> Why that makes sense, I I don't know. But he convinces her literally their first date, January 19th, he convinces her to email him all of her financial records. the deeds to her houses, her life insurance policies for every member of her family, um all of her financial records related to all of these bank accounts, the their very first meeting.

And I do not believe it's because she's somebody who's easily duped. I feel like he's that kind of person that it's like, "Let me take care of you. Let me help you in this way." In this courtship, he also very quickly learns what her insecurities are. her she had gained a bunch of weight since having brain surgery and I think you know like um the steroids and stuff like she had kind of gained weight that she felt insecure about and he assured her how beautiful she was. He also told her that he was a personal trainer and could get her back into shape. Um he then cautioned her he thought her ex-husband was up to no good and thought she should immediately separate from him if they were going to continue dating.

Mind you, this is still the first date that they're having. So, he convinces her >> to sell her house in Palace Veries to rent a house in Lagona Beach. Um, within two weeks, she's now initiated a transfer of millions of dollars, like $17 million from Brazil, like $13 million, maybe more, maybe like $20 million from Italy. Initiated these transfers to him. She sold her house in Palace. She's cut off communication with her ex-husband who she has a good relationship with. She rents a house in Lagona Beach, which is why she becomes our jurisdictional victim. Yeah. >> Um she also had told him she be because she wasn't accessing her money overseas, she had $65,000 in cash that she keeps under her mattress.

>> Okay. >> He says that money is not safe under her mattress. put that in my bank account and if you need any money I will give you money from your 65,000. So she gives him $65,000. >> Okay. >> Okay. So this is January 19th this starts. They go to a hotel for his birthday. His birthday is February 3rd. So February 2nd they go to a hotel to stay over. He's very tired. Every time they ever meet he's in scrubs cuz he's always working. He's always either in surgery in Newport or in Palm Springs, but he works every day. Apparently, he's like an on call anesthesiologist who has clients that pay him in cash for anesthesia.

Um, and but again, however he is delivering this to her, it's very convincing, right? >> Well, and it's so many parallels with the the main case with with Deborah that has been covered every time. It's all the same. >> Always in the scrubs, moving very >> quickly and so good at dividing the person from anybody else in their family or their world. Like, we're going to cut you off. It's just me and you. >> So, we call this the power and control wheel of domestic violence. So, >> what the the abuser attempts to do is literally cut you off from everything. So you are solely dependent on them for financial support, for emotional support, for physical support, for safety, security, for food.

>> Yeah. >> Shelter. And so that's what he's done to her, right? Like so he's moved her to Laguna Beach. Her money is now in his account. So if she needs any money, she has to ask him for her money. He starts coming. >> One one quick note on that. I It really struck me. It almost made me um like want to I just had a strong emotional reaction when I'm listening to this with Deborah and the in the original LA Times podcast >> and immediately, you know, he's asking her to marry him with inside of two weeks. And her kids, all three of her kids are like, >> "This guy's after your money, right? He's no good.

I've got a bad feeling about it." and she goes to see her therapist to ask about, oh, there's all this family strife now. >> And the therapist says, well, I think you need to draw clear boundaries with your kids >> because this is your decision, not theirs. Yeah. >> And so this therapist just >> pushed her into the arms of this predator and is and she's trusting this therapist. and the therapist is saying, "No, we're going to we're going to put up strong walls between you and your kids because this isn't their business." >> Right? >> And >> so, I think I don't I can't speak to what she said in therapy, but I mean, I feel like sometimes with a therapist, >> they're only using the information that's being provided, right?

So, if they're only hearing one side of the story, if they're not having therapy sessions where the kids are present or oneon-one, >> hearing the red flags and she's just kind of delivering the news from her fog of uh falling in love with this person, right? >> You know, then >> and who knows how he's manipulating what she's saying to the therapist cuz he was really good at that. So, and that's kind of what happened in our case, too, is that so he's completely isolated her and then she initiates all these transfers, >> but then it's like he's going with her every time she goes to to talk about her movie deal, he's with her, right?

So, he is involved in these. He's telling them, "Hey, from now on, just uh you can email or call me. You don't need to call her. I will relay the messages." So, he's taken over her that part of her business. >> Sure. She starts to get cold feet about all the money because when they went to this hotel for his birthday, she was moving his backpack or something because he was so tired from all the work he does. Um, she's moving, she's just cleaning up his clothes and his backpack is full of like prescription pill bottles, uh, full of meds and cash and it it's very heavy. And the next morning she's giving the backpack to the porter and uh he says, "Oh, don't give them that backpack." And opens it so she can see there's a handgun in the backpack.

So it's like a handgun, lots of cash, prescription meds. He's he's starting to be kind of um distant to her. Like they don't have much of an intimate relationship, but he's continuing to like become more controlling. So she's getting cold feet. she reaches out to her friend and and now she's feeling embarrassed that she did this, right? So then she doesn't want to say anything to her family members because it's like, "Oh, I think I kind of put myself in this position." So she reaches out to one friend and said, >> "I don't this is what I've done. I don't know if it's a good thing." Well, her friend immediat like much like Deborah's children immediately searches him on the internet and finds that um not only is he not a licensed anything um he is also on all of these websites for ex-girlfriends who are warning other women about their horrible exes.

and he's and every one of these websites where he's listed, it's the same pattern over and over again that he projected this exact image and then he took me for all my money or he threatened me and he won't stop threatening me. So, still not really sure if she believes this information that her friend has brought her because I think part of it too is kind of like that embarrassment of like there's no way I got duped by this, >> right? >> She emails him and confronts him with the information. this is what my friend found about you. And he says, "Do not um do not tell your friends about me. Do not ever speak about my gun again.

Um those transfers better go through." And all of a sudden it's switched. >> Yeah. >> She stops the transfers and that's when now he's following her. He's threatening her. He's incessantly calling and emailing her. Um he's showing up at her house. She's now sleeping in her husband's office. He's showing up at the office. She's driving and looks behind her and he's in the car behind her. Um she was in a um gated community in Newport Beach and you know they give you that guest pass that goes on your dash. She comes out of the house and the guest pass that was on her dash is now on her windshield that says we need to talk.

Meaning he has a copy of her car key. He's he admitted to tracking her phone. He's now got and she has no money. He has all of her money. She has no money anymore. I mean, she >> because he has that cash. He has that 65,000 >> and because of now her like reversing these transfers, all the money is frozen. Like there's no money anymore because she's she's kind of made a mess of that, right? Like >> so she has no money. She has she now can't pay her rent in Laguna because he was the one paying her rent. He's the one who's now speaking to all the people on the movie and telling them that she is not a good client to have and that she's changed her mind about the movie.

That's then she tries to get a a restraining order. They can't find him to give the restraining order. That's when she finally goes to the police. So all of this has happened. Then she finally goes to the police in April. First first had his first date with him in January. Now here we are in April. So oh, and in the midst of all that, she had given him when she, you know, admitted to him, "Oh, I feel like I'm overweight." And you know, I this is what I'd like to get back to. She sends him several pictures of her nude that she had sent to her husband years before, but she was much slimmer, right?

So, she sent that to him of like, "This is what I would like to look like." >> When he's now realizing the transfers aren't going through, he sends those pictures to her husband. She He sends the pictures to her all of her business associates. He sends a package to her son in Brazil with the pictures, printed pictures of her. But he's a person that you cannot he can find you. He always knows where where she is, right? But you cannot find him. There's no record of him. So that's when she comes to the police. And that's how we got involved, >> right? And even still knowing all of this, the police officer is like, "Oh, I I'll just tell him not to contact you anymore, you know, and this will stop it." Well, what we know about stalkers is >> the behavior will not stop.

It will only escalate. And what makes it so dangerous and volatile is we just don't know how it's going to escalate. Like we don't know what. And the less response you give, the more they are going to require a response from you. And so they are going to continue to do things that elicit a response, whatever that means. And a lot of times that becomes violent, >> right? And so and it starts with a lot of little things is what I'm hearing. Yes. >> That all add up >> to stalking. It's moving the plant. It's moving the >> pass on the dashboard. It's suddenly something in your house is >> moved around or planted there just so you know that they were there.

It's just sending this message that like I can get to you whenever I want to. >> Yeah. It's emotional terrorism. It's it's and but if you >> if you only had that one instance and you told a police officer, "Oh, they left a note on my car that they need to talk." They'd be like, "Oh, block him." you know, uh, reset your phone, let's check if there's malware on your computer, what, you know, like all the things just to safeguard yourself, which are good. They are good recommendations. However, it's it's a big crime, right? Like it's a big crime. And I think a lot of times, too, >> the victims of this, um, man or woman, it can feel very embarrassing, like, how did I let myself get into this relationship?

Or, why am I so susceptible to this? or I don't want to share with anyone that I've let it get this bad or that I'm afraid of him or or maybe he'll just go away or I think I or they remember the love bombing period of like, well, he was such a good guy. >> I I think he just can't get over me or whatever it is and then they they kind of almost kind of explain away that bad behavior. So, yeah, it's it's a it's a very difficult thing, but that's where I came in and was like, "Oh, no, I've already done this." and the guy is in prison right now. Like, let's let's go find him. >> So, we now are trying to find him, which is extremely impossible because he doesn't have anything registered in his name.

There's no cell phone, no credit cards, no car registration, nothing is listed under his name. Um, we set up a sting operation. He had always met her at this one Starbucks off of Jambburye in Newport. We set up a sting where we got there hours and hours beforehand. She was going to meet him. She She was nowhere near there, but she was going to meet him to give him the money so he would stop harassing her. >> He never shows. He says he knows the police are with her. It's like, how would you know the police are? But so he uh so we could not find him. >> Yeah. But back then, much like you know, there's no more Blockbuster or Plenty of Fish, but back then, um, you did not need a search warrant to access certain databases that now you would need a search warrant just to access.

So, one of those databases is a database through the state of California that logs every time you get a prescription. It logs who the doctor was that prescribed it, what you were prescribed, uh how many pills, what was the the strength of of the medicine. And it's basically used to find dirty doctors. So, who you know people that are overprescribing or shouldn't be prescribing or dirty doctors or people that are manipulating the system to get more meds. >> Well, in this case, we knew that she had discovered that backpack that one time with loads of pills in it. Um, and that he had a lot of injuries.

She had seen some scars on his body and stuff and he complained of pain all the time. So, we searched his name in that database to see if he had a doctor, if he had someone where because the pills that she found were prescribed to him, to his name. >> Yeah. >> So, turns out he had a chiropractor in Cathedral City. >> Okay. >> So, my sergeant calls the chiropractor and says, "I have to tell you, you have a patient named John Miand. He's a bad man and he is um >> victimizing this woman in Laguna Beach. we cannot find him to serve him with this restraining order. We need to talk to him. Would you invite him in for an appointment?

And the chiropractor is like, "Absolutely, no problem." So, he takes the bait and uh has an appointment for July 1st. This is July 1st, 2013. And I know that it was the day before my husband's birthday. And it July in Cathedral City. So, it was like 125 degrees that day. Not exaggerating. >> Yeah. So, we drive out there. Again, I told you the Starbucks story, right? So, we get out there at like 8:00 a.m. His appointments at 2. We're sitting in that parking lot at 8 a.m. because we don't want to be burned by him or if he's doing counter surveillance. >> Yeah. >> 125 degrees. We're sitting in that car all day, the entire day.

And then finally, right around right right before 2 PM, a red Jeep, like an older model Jeep, pulls into the parking lot, parks in a stall, and outwalks John Mi. This is July. I've been investigating him since April. We have been trying to find him since April. Yeah. >> And it was literally like seeing a celebrity, you know, a big moment >> because it's like, oh, he's real. Like, there he is. And I'd only seen pictures of him, but the picture I I had seen were from Plenty of Fish, you know, or the ones he had shared on these like 300 emails they had shared with each other of him looking, >> you know, uh, like charming or him flexing, right?

>> The man who walked out of that Jeep was like disheveled. He was wearing like old raggedy sweats. He uh he he looked uh kind of malnourished, you know, like a like a typical user, like a drug user. >> So, he walks out. We confirm that must be him. We do not know this car with we have no record of this car. Ultimately learned that the car he was driving, he had extorted from an ex-girlfriend and that was her car. >> He walks in, he sits down in the chiropractor's office. So, my detective sergeant, my future husband, and I walk into the chiropractic office. He's just sitting reading a People magazine or something.

>> Yeah. >> And I walk up to him and you know, I'm dressed pretty much as I am now. Walk up to him, showed him my badge. I said, um, Detective Bowman, Laguna Beach PD, I need to speak with you. Um, I want to respect your privacy. So, if you want to walk outside um like I I would invite you to do that to respect your privacy. And he's like, "No problem." So, we walk outside and I said, "Okay." >> Is your So, is your heart pounding in that moment or are you just >> No, you're it's not even raising. >> No, this feels like uh like I mean I played college basketball, you know, like your heart's not pounding when the game starts, right?

>> You know what I mean? like this is what we came for, you know? >> I feel like >> excited to play the game. >> Yeah. Not not even excited, just kind of like >> I know I'm going to arrest you in 20 minutes or an hour or two. Like I already know that's happening, right? >> But right now, this is a game of chess to see what else I can get out of you beforehand. I also know that if you try to do anything, I got my my heavies behind me, you know? So it's like I So it is it I mean heart racing of pursuit like if you're in a foot pursuit your heart is racing. You don't know what's going to happen next.

You know uh a vehicle pursuit. Like those are the only times I think in law enforcement where it felt like >> okay I don't you know this is and you have to like consciously talk yourself out of being hyped up, right? You know but in this situation it's like no this is this is the game we play. And I I had had a lot of experience with um rapists and uh you know like uh assault suspects who or you know like it seemed like because I I was very young. I'd only been a detective for you know I'd been a cop for four years. Yeah. >> Uh I was very young anyways. I look very young. And I think that for those types of criminals, they looked at me as kind of a challenge, like like they were going to to dupe me or get one over on me.

And for me, >> um I have a near photographic memory >> um in a way that I was an accounting ma major and I think I got 100% on every test we ever took because I could see the balance sheet in my head. I would write out the balance sheet. I could see it in my head. I'd been investigating this case for four months. I knew every single email. I knew every piece of paper I'd read. And now it was this kind of cat-and- mouse game of like I'm just going to tally all the lies and then we're going to add charges based on whatever he says right now, right? And so it's like I knew I felt very confident that I had all the cards.

Um and we finally get to to to to arrest him, you know, like this is over. Yeah. >> So yeah. No, it was uh that's the fun. That's >> And then and then where does the conversation go from there? Yeah. >> Yeah. So, we walk outside and I said, "Okay, well uh it's really hot out here. Um this does not bother me." Which truly I was not lying. I love the heat. So, it was like, "This doesn't bother me, but if you would rather, my car is right over there. We can sit in my car. Um and I said, you know, >> you uh you're not under arrest, but you are detained. You're not free to leave. Um, but I don't want you to feel like you're under arrest.

>> If you really want to cool down, these these bracelets here are like really cold on your wrist. >> But I said, uh, I said, "You can leave the door open. We'll turn on the air conditioning. You can sit which pick a seat you want to sit in." You know, like, but I don't think you want to stand out here, >> right? >> And I don't I guess we could have, you know, in hindsight, we could have like asked the chiropractor for a room or something to interview him, but >> I didn't I just didn't want to. He had already done us a huge favor. It's like get him out of there. But it was so hot. Like it's just so hot.

>> And so he's like, "No problem. >> Not not shaken by that at all." >> So I sit in the front seat of the car. He sits in the front passenger seat. >> Uh uh my future husband, detective, sitting behind him, my detective sergeant behind me. And so I start telling him about our our, you know, about our victim and our what she had alleged had occurred. And every single sentence out of his mouth was a lie. every single sentence was it's like well you know oh so you you claim that you are a doctor um what are you a do what do you have a doctorate in and uh or what are you a doctor of you're a medical doctor yeah oh no I never claimed I'm a doctor well you told her that you're a doctor oh I actually have a PhD where'd you get your PhD I don't have to tell you that like it was that kind of thing everything that we would say there was a reason why this had happened deny whatever it was um he was denying things that we had actual tangible proof had occurred.

Like there's no way to deny that this happened. >> So I keep asking him, asking and I'm talking to him as I'm talking to you now. Like and I don't know that I I don't find myself to be threatening, but for to those type of criminals, >> it's very threatening to them that I talk to them this way and that I continue to to like say things that challenge them. >> Sure. >> But and I'm not yelling at them. I'm not um criticizing them, right? I'm not saying anything mean. >> Well, behind me are these two male cops that keep chipping away and saying stuff. So, when he would make he would lie about something, my detective sergeant, who also knew the case very well, would be like, "Well, d >> or he would say something rude to me and Brian, my future husband, would be like, "Hey, watch your mouth." Every time he would say something and then they would respond, he would almost like flinch, like physically cower from them speaking to him >> and then he would lash out at me.

>> H >> he never looked behind us. >> Yeah. >> At the men sitting behind him >> and continued to lash out at me. >> Yeah. So it really was this >> Yes. >> male female this extreme male female dynamic. This episode of the Nick Stanley Show is brought to you by Zapier. If you've ever felt buried in repetitive work, copying data, moving files, sending follow-ups, you know it's like death by a thousand mouse clicks. Zapier has always been the tool that fixes that. It connects over 8,000 apps, Google Drive, Slack, Notion, Gmail, MySpace, you name it. So your tools can finally play nice together. But here's the big shift.

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Follow the steps in the connect tab. And if you're an admin on a Chat GPT enterprise account, you can enable MCP across your entire workspace. So, if you're ready to stop wasting time on busy work, join the AI revolution and make a little automation magic of your own. Try the Zapier Chat GPT integration using the link below. >> Moving forward and then ultimately listening to Chris Gotford's podcast and then meeting Tanya, his ex-wife, and learning who he was. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Something happened in his younger life. He has some type of hatred of women, his own mother, his wife, you know. uh that that he is this way, but it was so so strangely obvious in that moment, you know, like and he's he won't look behind him.

He's flinching when they speak. >> So, at one point, and who knew this would become such a big thing, but at some point he said something, Brian responded. I wish I knew what Brian said. I'm sure I could find the audio, but it's like in that moment, whatever he said, John said, "Yeah, I'm done." >> And just starts getting out of the car. Like he was so over Brian chipping away that he goes, "I'm done." >> He gets out of the car, Brian gets out of the car, and Brian goes, "Actually, you're under arrest." So Brian comes around, puts him in handcuffs. And while the two of them are standing next to each other, that was the first moment I realized how big he was.

Um, you know, on his driver's license, it's like he's 6'2, he's two something. Um, Brian's six foot, 230, 240, whatever. He and this and he towered over Brian. He was this big barrelchested guy and I really did catch myself thinking >> I wouldn't feel comfortable doing this alone >> with him. Also, I can't imagine >> being a victim of his like being being the um the focus or the target of his hatred and resentment and threats, right? He's a big intimidating guy. And we were seeing him when he wasn't made up. He wasn't, you know, he and he didn't look like he'd showered. He, you know, he wasn't, but it was like he was still just a a big big guy.

>> Yeah. >> So, we arrest him. At that point, the charges were burglary, extortion, stalking, annoying, threatening phone calls. So, we drive him back to Laguna Beach. We now have this car to deal with this Jeep. So we drive him back to Lagona. We then um search the car and uh in the car we find all this mail for a like a RV park and a business confl business business complex in Cathedral City. So, we uh authored search warrants for the RV park for this business office. And like 5 days later, we'd drive out to the RV park. He had um rented the RV and rented the office space in his wife's name. >> His wives were these ex-girlfriends who he had used their copies of their driver's license, copy of their credit reports um in order to rent these places.

So that's why it was we couldn't find him until we found this mail inside this car. >> So we go into the So we go to the RV and it's like this dilapidated RV. Uh it's still 125° and now we're trying to figure out how we're going to get into this RV and uh I went to just go try the handle and it's unlocked. So I open the door and it's like all these gnats fly out. It's 200° inside the RV. Yeah. >> And inside it was like an episode out of Breaking Bad. Like it was everything's covered in some type of uh drug paraphernalia, old food, maggots everywhere. But in the middle of all that, like on top of his bed in the back of the RV >> are his scrubs that he wore, like the infamous scrubs that he wore all the time.

Um, we find our victim's passport, her Brazilian passport, which he had withheld from her in order to get her to pay him. >> Um, and then there's this pristine looking computer monitor in the center of this like I mean everything is so gross. You you like you're not even touching anything, but you already feel like you need a shower from it. >> And there's a a computer moni monitor. So I shake the mouse awake, the screen pops up, and it's hundreds of images of women. Whoa. >> are on his computer screen. Including my victim, including his ex-wife, including all these other ex-girlfriends that did not live in Orange County, but had begged us to to bring them into the case as victims.

Like, it was every all these women. But so, I'm sitting there thinking like, this can't be it. Like, we got a computer and his scrubs and the passport. Like, everything in me is like this guy is is dirty. Like I mean, no joke, but you know, it's like he's he's like an evil person, but this is it. It's like a passport and the scrubs. Like, right, >> this is not this doesn't really add to our case. I mean, it validates what she said. >> So, the next place we went to search was the office park. >> So, we went in and it was like a two two room structure in like or he had rented two rooms. So, there was like a boat.

There was um one room that looked like a living room. And ultimately, we found a lot of his selfies on Plenty of Fish were from that room. Like, it made it look like it was like a living room. >> There's a couch in there, um a refrigerator, a motorcycle, and then just stacks of paper everywhere. >> Okay. So, we start looking through the stacks of paper and it's like people's social security cards. It's their Facebook profiles. It's deeds to their house. It's titles to their car. It's um the death investigation report for his brother who mysteriously overdosed in California. It's And what I know about stalking is stalkers are >> so like curiously they're like big hoarders.

>> Huh. >> So, they never get rid of anything. So they keep like all of the all of the things that they have secured from each of their victims, they will store because you never know when you might need to use that against them again. So no victim is ever done. No one is ever off the hook >> from their stalker, right? Like they always there's always potential that they might need to kind of tap that resource again and come after them. So we find all this paperwork of every single person that we've ever interviewed or has come up on anything. We find it all. Yeah. >> Again, I'm thinking like, okay, so I'm going back to Lagona with a ton of papers, like, you know, nothing is really kind of standing out as like, okay, this is it like verifying every all my gut feelings.

Well, while he was in custody, uh, during that time, like the four days he had been in custody, he had had some female who had come visit him at the Lacy jail had emailed one of the ex-girlfriends that he was still harassing and said, "Wire me bail money. There's money in the freezer." >> So, here we are and there's a fridge in this place and we know he sent this email about a money in the freezer. Yeah. >> We also know that uh lot criminals typically store their drugs in their freezer. So uh we go into the freezer and there's a backpack in the freezer. Inside the backpack there are two loaded guns, hundreds of rounds of ammo, uh zip ties, duct tape, GPS units, cyanide capsules, cyanide powder.

Um, like it was a full oh like it was a full-on kidnapping killing kit. >> Yeah. >> And I'm like, "There it is." Like literally it's like, "Okay, this is this is what we came for, right?" Like he was going to kill someone. >> Yeah. >> And everything about him >> was was felt like it was trending towards that. >> Oh, and your instincts were telling you it was there. >> Everything was telling me that that this is what we're going to find. And here it was. And we knew he had this, you know, this history, you know, previously of like >> selling drugs and whatever and threatening his ex-wife, but but really it's like, oh, here it is.

He was going to kill her. Like something was going to happen. So, we're able to add, he was a felon at the time, so we're able to add felon in possession of a of a handgun and also the ammunition >> to his charges. Um he served 270 days >> and got like 240 days for good behavior or something like that. Yeah. >> Um but in that time so we arrest him in July >> in September. >> Um I happened to be working patrol or something but uh just covering patrol and the watch manager is like hey that somebody's calling from Orange County Jail and they want to speak with the detective. But it was a day where detectives were not there, but I was there.

So I take the phone call and he said, "Hey, we need to talk to someone. We have somebody who's in custody who's trying to put a hit out on a Lagouna Beach detective." >> Yeah. >> And I said, "What's the name of the detective?" He said, "Julia Bowman. Do you know her?" And I said, "I am her." >> Yeah. >> I said, "What's the name of your in custody?" And he said, "John Mihan." I said, "Well, what's your plan?" You know, and he's like, "What do you want me to do?" I'm like, "What do you want me to do?" Like, "What are you going to do?" >> Yeah. So apparently he had been using his cellmate to put a hit out on me.

Do you remember that female police officer who took the initial report? >> His ex-wife. Um and the specific instructions to his cellmate were $10,000 for each of us. >> Um and that we need to be killed by October because that's when the court date was. >> Wow. >> So in his mind, if I was dead, then he then he would be exonerated from this case. there's no case if I'm dead, >> which doesn't make sense, but it doesn't make it any less alarming and real. >> So, it was very alarming and real, but also because independent of that, someone had been following me home like for weeks. Um, Lagouna Beach at that time, the employee parking lot was an open parking lot.

That's also where you park if you're going to the Pageant of the the Masters, you know? I mean, like anyone could park there. Even on like, you know, summer weekdays, it's like I'm parking parking next to a beachgoer and I'm going to work, they're going to the beach. >> Yeah. >> So, it was very easy. You could watch a police officer walk back to their personal vehicle. And someone Absolutely. We lived at the time, we lived in a cul-de-sac where you'd have no reason to be in this cold sack if you didn't live there. >> Yeah. >> And one night, I'm driving home and I'm like, "Dang, this car is right on my bumper the whole way home." >> Yeah.

>> I get in the driveway and the car stops in front of our driveway and then keeps driving. I walk in and I say to my future husband, um, oh, this like gold, uh, Toyota something followed me like all the way to our driveway. And he goes, that car followed me yesterday. He runs out to his car, searches the whole neighborhood for the car. We don't know why someone's following us >> cuz this is prior to finding out about the hit. >> The hit, right? So then we start doing taking different routes home. We go home at different times. Um, then we find out about the hit. We started hiding guns all over the house.

We literally had a gun that we kept above the like the door frame on the inside of the front door. >> We had guns in the bathroom. >> Oh, I think you'd be going John Wick style, right? >> But it was like I don't there's always but someone is someone was able to send that message the ex-girlfriend asking for bill money. He's soliciting this hit, right? And then he gets out of jail very quickly on this case. He pleads he pleads guilty and then gets like 200 and some days. So >> what what are you and your husband like feeling during this time? >> I felt so I felt very in danger of my life. >> Yeah.

>> Uh the female police officer and I asked the DA's office for a restraining order. We were denied. We were told that we're police officers, so we can't be in fear for our safety >> from from him. And we were like, well, this is like intimidating a witness or a victim. Like, this is the lines of that. And so, because we're police officers, we shouldn't be afraid. So, knowing that felt very much like we were on our own. >> Um, >> whoa. >> And I'll tell you, so I didn't know what happened next. I didn't know that after he got out of prison on our case, two days later, he met Deborah Newell, >> right?

Two days later, he was back on Plenty of Fish and met Deborah Newell, >> right? >> Within two months, they're married, right? Like all of this is happening right when he gets out. This was >> So he got out literally on the day So we arrested him July 1st, 2013. He got out of jail July 1st, 2014. Two days later, he he meets Deborah, >> right? >> Or I'm sorry, actually. So he got out of jail July 1st, 2014. He then violated a restraining order and went back to jail. Got out in October. Two days later, he meets Evernol. Uh in December of 14, I leave Laguna Beach and lateral to another police department.

Um and and now I'm gone. Like I I have left the agency. If I had stayed at Laguna Beach, um from what you heard in the podcast, right? So, at one point, Deborah Newell, he's at Hogue cuz he has like an impacted colon or something from all his opioid abuse. >> Yeah. >> She searches his room and finds all these documents. She finds my search warrant because again, stalkers never get rid of anything. >> Yeah. >> She goes to Laguna Beach PD to the front desk, hands them my search warrant, and says, "I need to talk to Detective Bowman." >> Yeah. >> The records clerk says, "She doesn't work here." and does not give them give her a I mean I guess I appreciate that like I don't need you telling her here's her forwarding information right but they could have someone could have communicated to me hey this lady came looking for you however there's turnover in records maybe it's a new records person they did not know my name >> right >> or and if it had been John that came there trying to get your new information >> or you don't know who this woman is like why is she why did she have a copy of the search warrant >> I mean all this stuff is so tricky and multi-dimensional like and you don't know who these people And in hindsight, you know, hindsight is so crazy, right?

>> I didn't meet Deborah or her daughters until we were in the green room at Dr. Phil and her daughter, Jacqueline, comes to me and says, I knew about you before I knew about us. And I said, "What does that mean?" She goes, "We found his little black book and your name was at the top of his book." >> Whoa. >> But we didn't know who you were. >> Yeah. >> Like what? >> Right. So I had every reason to be totally afraid. Yeah. >> Well, so now I've left Lagona. I'm at a new agency. I'm now pregnant and I keep having these dreams that John Mian is calling me and he's outside my house. >> Yeah. >> And in my dream, I would I was very pregnant.

In real life, also very pregnant. I would, you know, you have like I mean, you you probably don't know, but you have like crazy dreams sometimes when you're pregnant, right? >> I I do remember that when my wife was pregnant. >> Right. So, it's like you're getting you're having weird dreams anyways, but normally it's like, you know, uh your body is a shark or something, you know? It's like something weird like that. Like this was So, I had these vivid dreams. It was my house. It's him calling me. >> I would put him on speaker phone. >> I would put the dogs I was always very worried about the dogs.

I would put the dogs in the closet or the bathroom and close the door upstairs. I would take a shotgun and I would sit at the top of the stairs and wait for him. And then I would text my husband who was at work always in my dream. Yeah. >> And tell him to to call the police that that John's outside of our door. >> Yeah. >> I had that so many times. >> Yeah. Well, and some part of your subconscious knew. >> So that is and I that's verifiable because I tell Brian, "Hey, I keep having this dream about John Mayan." John Brian goes to a briefing at Lagona for patrol and they go, "Hey, we're supposed to give V victim services sent this letter to inform Julia that John Mihan's back in Orange County >> and he was at Hogue, >> right?" >> And and he goes, "That's so weird that you're having this dream.

He's in Orange County. They have a record of him returning to our county." So that's all happening. Right. >> Right. So, the next thing that happens in my story is I'm sitting in report writing. I'm now on patrol in my new agency. Sitting in report writing. It's uh August 2016. August 20th, 2016. And my phone rings and it's a detective from Lagouna Beach. I answer the phone and he says, "You will never guess what just happened. John Mi is dead." And I'm like, "What?" Like, "What?" And he says, "Yeah, his his wife, he tried to he attacked his wife's his ex-wife's daughter and she killed him." And I'm thinking like, "His ex-wife in Ohio?" Like, I'm like, I don't know why this would like how does he have another wife already?

So, I'm like, "All right, thank you for letting me know." And >> but in the meantime, he had married Deborah. >> I don't Yeah, but I don't know any of this. I have I have separated myself from all of this, right? >> But in that moment, I did. It was like sitting there and having this like very physical release of like the the weight and the fear of him, but also like not really believing that he's dead. Like >> like, okay, so so it's over, but like none of this is really making sense. I don't understand what's going on. Well, then my phone is now blowing up. It's Irvine PD. It's Newport Beach PD.

It's GQ. It's People magazine. It's LA Times. Everybody wants the story of Dirty John. And I declined all of it. >> Yeah. >> I was like, "Please don't use my name. Focus on your own agency. This He died in Newport or Irvine. Like, go talk to them. I I don't want any part of it." Um I was so afraid that someone, >> you know, was going to carry out his mission or something like that. I was so so afraid of the whole thing. So now that was what? Yeah. So that's August. So now we're at Thanksgiving that year. I'm at my in-laws family Thanksgiving dinner and a cousin of my husband comes up to me and goes, "So you're that detective in that podcast, right?" And I'm like, "What podcast?" And he goes, "Oh, there's this LA Times podcast about Dirty John, but it's got to be you.

They talk about this detective at Laguna Beach, but that's got to be you, right? And I'm like, >> wait, what podcast? What are you talking about? Yeah. >> But I had I had declined Chris Coffford's request, right? Like I had declined not to speak and now there was this podcast, >> right? >> I had no interest. People at work even are like, "Oh, I listen to this podcast. That's you, right?" And it's like, "Oh my gosh, why is this happening?" Like, "Why is this kind of coming back to me?" So, okay, I was telling you much earlier, uh, my craziest case, right? So, now fast forward, I'm on a grand jury for a homicide trial in Ventura for the one I told you was stored in a freezer in Ohigh.

I'm on that grand jury for a homicide trial for that. I'm having to drive to Ventura every single day for this trial. So, I'm like, "Well, I have the time." Like, we're talking about podcasts, right? I'm like, I guess I could listen to it. Like, I do have a curiosity about this thing. And everyone keeps saying I'm in this thing, right? >> And I'm one like I'll tell you, I'll probably never listen to this. Like, after you I have no interest in watching myself or listening to myself, right? But it's like >> you're just going to hear from other people how great it was. >> But it was like, what did they what did they say?

Like, what what is this podcast? Like, what what could you say about about John Mihan if you didn't interview me, right? like I don't know. >> Right. >> So, I'm driving to and from Ventura and I listen to the entire podcast. So, by like day four of my homicide grand jury, I'm driving home. I get in my parking my driveway. I still have maybe 20 minutes left in the final episode. I cannot get out of the car. >> Yeah. It was so like cathartic and it provided so much closure and it was so like all confirming of everything that I had felt like all of the history of him and everything that happened before and since.

I was like I knew it like he's the most evil person I've ever come across in my life. >> Yeah. >> And I can fairly confidently say I'm the only the one of maybe two police officers that's ever interviewed him. >> Right. >> Right. like I sat next to him. I you know and aside from him getting arrested in Ohio, you know, in the '9s, like no one else had really come close to that. And >> so it was it was just kind of insane to have listened to this thing. >> So the final part of it would be um I months and months after that, maybe a year after that, that female police officer calls me, right? She's still I think she's now a sergeant at Lagona.

She calls me and she goes, "These um producers keep calling me to be on this show and I don't want to be on it, but I also don't want to acknowledge that they like that they have the right phone number or that they've reached me or anything." >> Yeah. >> Would you call them, >> you know, and just tell them I don't want to be on this show? She's like, "Did anyone call you?" And I'm like, "Nobody called me. Thank god nobody called me." She goes, "Can you just call them and tell them I don't want to be on their show?" So, I call this producer and I say, "Hi, I'm calling on behalf of Officer White.

Um, and I just want to let you know she's not interested in being on your production. Thank you so much, but yeah, I don't think you're going to get anyone from Lagouna Beach." >> And he said, "Well, who are you?" I said, "Well, I'm Julia Bowman." He goes, "You're Julia Bowman?" He's like, "Do you know how long we've been looking for you?" He's like, "We don't want to interview her. We want to interview you." >> Yeah. >> And I said, "Oh, I don't want to." He goes, "You're so hard to find." I said, "Yeah, understandably so." Like, I I don't want any part of this. He goes, "We're making a documentary, but our spin on it is it's all the women in John Mian's life and all these impressive women and hearing from their side of the story, and it's less sensationalizing John, but talking about the women." And I said, "Well, I think you guys have done it wrong all this time.

I think you make Deborah sound like an idiot. like you make her sound like some Orange County socialist that didn't know it better that's naive to this. Only w women like her would have been duped in this way, >> right? >> You're wrong on that. He would have got anyone. He would have found an angle to to manipulate anyone for what he wanted. He was the worst kind of sinister person. I also think you're not doing enough to um provide the public service announcement of how horrible stalking is, that that people should be advocates for themselves, that this is a crime, that you should go to law enforcement with this, what stalking looks like.

And he goes, >> if you come on our show, you could say whatever you want. Like whatever you want to say, you can say that. Like that's we need you on the show, >> right? >> So I was on that documentary. Um, at the time I happened to be pregnant again and they were like, "Oh, this is going to be great. You're going to be pregnant on the show." And well, then our son was born 3 weeks early, so I ended up not being pregnant on the show. I had a 10-day old. So, we show up to do the taping of the show. We're in the green room for it, and we can see Chris Coffford being interviewed on the monitor, but we're waiting to go in, or I'm waiting to go in.

Yeah. >> Well, we are all there. my toddler, my newborn, my 10-day old newborn. Yeah. My husband. >> And uh the interviewer is saying to Chris Coffford, "Well, did you ever get to talk to Julia Bowman?" He goes, "That's the only person I never got to talk to. That's the only hole in in the story." >> Yeah. >> And she said, "What if I told you she's here right now?" >> Chris leaves the interview, comes back to the green room, and starts talking to me and Brian to the point where now they're saying like, "Hey, Julia, we got to take you." The two of you can keep talking, but we got to take Julia. She's got to get on camera.

Like, we got a schedule to keep. >> Yeah. >> So, I do my interview and I leave the interview and I come out and Brian's out, you know, swinging the car seat with our 10-day old who hasn't nursed in two hours. And I was like, "Well, how did I do? How did it go?" And he goes, "I don't know. I've been talking to Chris Goffford for the last two hours." Like, there was so much that overlapped that had just never been like, I had all these answers to things that nobody knew. But I was so afraid for my own security of this situation. Um, so from there I got like a handler and they asked if I would be on Dr.

Phil with Deborah. >> Yeah. >> Um, I called my mom. I said, "I know, mom, you're worried about this, but they're they want me to go on Dr. Phil." And or I texted her. They want me to go on Dr. Phil. You know, Brian says it's okay. I think I'm going to go on Dr. Phil. And she calls me. I'm like, "Mom, it's fine." She goes, "You're going on Dr. Phil?" "Yes." "On Monday?" "Yes." "Can I come?" So, I called the handler and I said, "Um, so weird. My mom wants to come to Dr. Phil." She goes, "Oh my god, everyone's mom wants to come to Dr. Phil." She's like, "Yeah, your mom can come to Dr. Phil." >> So, I was on Dr.

Phil. He was super very, very kind, very nice. Um, he the one question I thought, you know, I've answered so many questions about this case at this point. The one question he asked is what I thought about online dating. And I'm like, "You brought a a police detective on camera to ask what do I think?" And I'm like, "I'm grateful that I didn't have to do it." And everybody laughs and he's just glaring at me like that was not the answer, you know? So I said, "Uh, vet the person online. You have all these things available to you. Meet them in an open public place. Bring your friends. Don't disclose information.

Have a long engagement before you get intimate with like I'm like these are you could Google this stuff." like this is, you know, but it's like >> so again, I don't know that I was able to really like uh provide the support for Deborah in the interview. I did say the things, but it didn't make make the the taping of it, you know, of about stalking stuff. That's like boring stuff. That's not like >> Right. >> So, um >> so they cut that from that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Well, that's the thing is like you go on it, you're like, I don't even know if my episode's going to air, you know. Uh but I did get an opportunity to meet Deborah, to meet her daughters.

Um which was wild like the fact that we had never met but we kind of knew about each other in these ways. >> Yeah. >> Uh years later I was invited to do um a presentation on it for a conference and I was like I don't have enough for four hours. They gave us like the keynote. >> Yeah. >> And I said I don't think my part is that much. So I reached out >> to Dennis Lukan who was the detective from Ohio. I reached out to Tanya Bales, who's his ex-wife, >> said, "You guys want to come to San Diego?" >> Yeah. >> And we talked on the phone, you know, all these years ago, and they're like, "I would love to come to San Diego." >> Yeah.

>> So, first Tanya got up, then Dennis got up, and I'm sitting there, and I'm hearing their stories for the very first time, and it is plugging in so many things into my own case. >> Yeah. >> And then I get up to speak. Um, I told Brian, "Hey, I'll be out of this. We're going to talk for two hours tops and then like we can take the kids to Legoland. Like this is one, oh no, we're going the full four hours. People are asking questions. People want to take pictures. I'm like the interest in this case, but a lot of it I think is the way he died was so spectacularly >> well and we should cover that real quick because we kind of skipped over it before just for anybody that doesn't know the full story.

>> Yeah. So what happened after my case? So he gets released from jail in October. Two days later he um meets Deborah Newell. Within two months they are married and he has separated her completely from her family. Um one day she's getting the mail and finds a letter to him from Theo Lacy from an inmate in Theo Lacy. She opens it >> and it's an inmate just checking in on him. >> Yeah. So she confronts him, who you were in jail. And he's like, oh, you know, I do like volunteer work with the Lacy, whatever. Well, then he ends up at Hogue because his colon is impacted from his opioid abuse. And it's like he can't really hide that, right?

So, he's now in in um in the hospital and they have started to kind of figure out like things are unraveling with with his facade and she searches all of his property and really comes to to the truth of all of it. Finds my search warrant, all these things. >> Um at that point, she sought out an attorney. >> She moved out while he was still at Hogue. um and started like wearing a disguise and was very concerned about herself. And her one daughter who had been very vocal against him. Um her other daughter had not been as vocal and was kind of more mildmannered in how she dealt with him, but she was very worried about her daughter who had really kind of confronted him multiple times about things she thought were were suspicious.

Um after he got out of Hogue, he ended up moving into her she had a second home in Henderson, Nevada. He started uh living there and uh really kind of fell off the rails. Started using a lot of drugs and then threatening her a lot. She tried to get a restraining order. They would not provide her a restraining order because he lived out of state. So they said there was no credible threat, >> right? Um, and so she was very much in fear for her safety, for her for her one daughter's safety. Her other daughter, uh, lived in an apartment complex. And one day, uh, John Mi backed into a stall in the parking garage of the park parking complex.

When she came out to go to her car, she had a dog that came with her to work. She like was a dog groomer and uh, brought her dog to work. So, her dog comes with her out to her car. As she's going to her car, John Mi approaches her and attacks her, tackles her to the ground. Um, starts stabbing her. She gets hold of the knife that he is stabbing her with. Um, she said that she thought about in that moment she thought about um she's like a big fan of The Walking Dead. >> Yeah. >> And said that like it felt like she was being attacked by a zombie. And in that show, the only way you can kill a zombie is by stabbing them through the eyeball.

So she stabbed him 13 times and stabbed him through the eyeball. During the assault, there was a girl in an apartment who was looking that looks down on this complex, the complex like in the middle of the apartment building. um like a 12-year-old girl hears this commotion, looks down, sees this girl being attacked, um runs down there, and uh told her mom to call the police, runs down there um to to assist Tara, the the daughter that was attacked. uh she was a junior guard and I don't I feel like I'm a former junior guard so I was like I feel like there's something to that of just being like you know kind of like naturally inclined to be a first responder or something but at 12 years old to tell your mom to call 911 >> and to respond to that is like very heroic.

>> Yeah. >> Um so Tara >> was injured >> um and you know had to rehabilitate physically but al also like you know the mental impact that was severe. uh now uh you know with a stab wound through the eyeball. He was on life support and like the the crazy part was now a family member must decide if they want to pull the you know pull him off of life support. >> I did not know that detail. Whoa. >> So Deborah was his ex-wife. >> Yeah. >> At this point, right? Because she had like anulled the marriage. Um, also like this happened so rapidly like this is like you know this is from October to August like they met in October here it is August and this is where we're at, right?

But so >> because she was the ex-wife then they called his his previous ex-wife and I think his sister the previous ex-wife Tanya also declined to be the one to make that decision. She had two daughters with him and felt very overwhelmed by that decision and so the his sister had to decide who he had she had an act of restraining order against him. He had abused that relationship as well. >> So um that's how he died. Yeah, he died. So he was attacked. He attacked her on August 20th and he died on the 25th >> and that was the end of John Mian. But that's how it had to end. Like there's no other way this story ends.

And that was even like me finding the backpack. >> Yeah. >> That was like someone's gonna die. >> Yeah. And he's probably killed other people, you know, like there's probably, you know, stories that we will never know of things that he did, including his brother and I think his dad, that they they believe that he he provided the pills um that ultimate or the me the drugs that ultimately caused his brother to overdose and that he may have killed his father when his father was in in the hospital and he went to visit him. >> Yeah. So things like that, like you know, you you will never know that. Um but it's just a wild it's a wild crazy tale, you know.

Um and now it's like everyone's favorite party trick, you know. They'll be like, "Oh, you're a police officer. What do you do?" And I'm like, "It's not cool. I'm an admin, you know. I write training requests." And they're like, "Oh." And then Brian will go, >> "Did you ever watch Dirty John?" >> Yeah. >> And they're like, "I love Dirty John." And it's like she's the detective that arrested Dirty John. And then I'm like, well, you've now two hours of my life I'm gonna be telling this story. And a lot of times what's funny is like >> everybody else knows the story better than me. I'm like, oh that's right.

That's the order of how it went. It's like I don't know. I wasn't this wasn't >> I wasn't creating a a TV show, right? Like I we were just living this. But yeah, no. Normally people will correct me, you know, like oh no, actually I think I'm like sure, maybe that's how it went. Like I'm not I'm not trying to to be part of this history. So >> yeah. Well, I've known you for years and this is never I I was not aware of this at all until just recently. >> The bank. We were chatting at the bank. >> Yeah. No, and that was really I mean like when I met your wife was right when I had I I had just had my first child which was >> that when you know that when I was pregnant and having those nightmares that was all during that period.

>> Whoa. So, it's it's definitely but I still it's like I've I've had several cases that have resulted in uh you know a lot of national recognition for the case. Um but like nothing as like every time somebody calls and they're like we we have another spin. We want to I'm like >> again on the dirty but it's so I I brought it because it just came out. So Tanya wrote a book. >> Um they asked me to to be interviewed on the book. So her and her ghostriter interviewed me and uh and the so I I tried to buy the book and it was sold out on Amazon. So I texted Tanya. I'm like really? I'm like I guess good news it's sold out.

>> Can't even get a a copy of a book that I'm in. Um so I read I got the book and you know got home from work and the Amazon package is waiting there and I I like rip it open and my husband's like what is this? And I'm like oh it's Tanya's book. Meanwhile I got to get kids in the bath. We got to finish homework. We got to So he gets to read it. I don't get to read it. Right. So finally when I had a chance to sit down and read it, it was like it's still as interesting today as it like all these years later, >> you know? It's still like coming back into it, it's like all right, this what a weird sequence of events of all the things that happened, you know?

So, >> I did want to ask you because one, >> it's it's come up a couple times on >> misperceptions on people who can be duped by a con artist like this. >> I thought that one of the most interesting details of Deborah's story was what happened with her sister. And she had a sister who was a bit older. >> Yeah. And I think Deborah's at like 30 at the time this goes down. Her sister's husband basically executed her. I mean, the they said the >> Yeah. Yeah. >> muzzle of the gun was against her head when it goes off. >> And then Deborah's mother decided she was going to forgive him for >> murdering her daughter >> and testified on his behalf at the trial.

and he only did >> two years and some change in prison. And the DA on that case said, "Yeah, that was mostly down to the victim's mother is testifying on his behalf. Otherwise, we could have put this guy away for a long time." >> Yeah. And I have to imagine that had a huge impact on Deborah and how she would respond to the situation she ends up in with Dirty John. And I just wanted to >> explore that for a second. >> I think yeah absolutely that has an impact. I think there are people that I think most people want to see the good in in others especially when they have given themselves to that person when they have kind of like chosen to latch on to them >> that we're always looking for the benefit of the doubt right like we're always looking for for that >> even though this doesn't make sense to me there's got to be a like a right side to this I think there's also a lot of people in the best way this is not a criticism I don't think people should should be like me or my husband.

We sit down in a restaurant and like within two minutes I'm like, "You see that guy?" You know, it's like we know exactly. We've already kind of figured out everybody who seems like they might be a threat, right? People say things or do things and we're immediately kind of hypervigilant about it. I don't think you should be that way. Right. I think like there there's something wi within us that has been kind of hardearned on being that that kind of um skeptical of everything. >> Yeah. you should expect the good from people, you know. Uh, but I think I I think that probably allowed her to to not um to not heed the warnings by her kids or to really, you know, think like, oh, he's just misunderstood, you know, that kind of thing.

And I I come from a family I feel like my mom is is I don't know if she would forgive someone for murdering me, but I feel like I grew up in a household which was very much that way of like you know you you give people the benefit out. You give people second chances. I am being reminded all the time by my own husband of like Julie remember that person did this and this and this to you and I'm like all right but it's like I kind of live by the rule of like you're nice to me I'm nice to you. So, I think that that's kind of the world she operated in. But I don't see that as like a negative trait or a weakness.

I think that's how it should be. And if you didn't have evil in the world, that would you'd be okay all the time, right? But he was the type of evil that I don't know how why did he go to our victim's bedside after brain surgery and know, hey, I can give her or did he do it to six other people and we just don't know that he did? you know, it's like, but did he pick people that he looked at as, >> oh, this person's probably got a kind heart or is going to be open to my my uh connection or whatever it is, you know? So, >> well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of predators do have an instinct for who is vulnerable.

>> Yes. I mean, if we look at say sex crimes, I mean, they seem to >> gosh have a have a and some and a lot of the time those abusers were abused before and maybe that leads to developing some sort of radar for who >> is more vulnerable or susceptible. >> I mean, I understand what you're saying. I think Yeah, I think they know what they're looking for. Like I was saying that I find myself when I'm interviewing those types of criminals, >> it's either like like in a second they go, "Oh, I couldn't do this to her." Like it's like they recognize like, "Oh, she's not she's not going for it. Like I'm not I am not selling her on this." And then it becomes this weird challenge.

Like I literally had a rapist >> where he was in >> uh like a holding cell in the jail and we're interviewing him in the holding cell. >> Yeah. And he is showing me against the bench, like on the bench in the holding cell, he is showing me how he had sex with her and how his hands were that couldn't have been him holding her down. And I'm watching this like this is wild. This is wild that he's showing me this. But it's literally like him proving to me that he's not this guy, right? Because he couldn't have taken advantage of me. I I mean I could tell you so many stories of things like that with these types of people, >> but I think I mean to to the what you said about like uh like sex sex assault.

>> I here's the thing about uh about rapists. Like the only way not to get raped is don't be in the same room with the rapist. So I don't want to say that it's a certain type of person that gets either. I just don't I want to be very careful not to blame% but I do think like they see something in someone where like oh they're they're going to be a kind person or they're going to be open. I feel like, you know, you'd go to um a church group or something where it's like you have a a mission of of kind of being uh um I don't know, generous and and gracious and open and benevolent and you know, and then somebody comes in and kind of prays on that that you're that type of person.

Um I don't think they're going to be like, "Oh, you're both cops. Yeah, I'm going to see if I can get this over on you." You know what I mean? So, yeah, I definitely think that's there. But I think that yeah, they they that's the first thing they're scanning the room to see. Oh, who who would I Yeah. And also, oh, you're separated from your husband, >> right? >> Oh, you um you have you have an issue that I could solve. Oh, you have insecurities that I can that I can address, right? Like all of those things that all comes into play. Not just like are you kind of um I don't know kind to a fault or something, you know?

But I think there are so many things about like, oh, what can how can I? And I do believe that's even in his profile, his dating profile is talking about ways that he just wants to show them love that they've never received. And he wants to care for them and and then he love bombs them in that way of showing them all these things that they haven't received. And then once they feel secure in that and he has all of their financial information, then the, you know, the the switch is flipped. And then now he's going after them. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> There was a on that love bomb idea, there was a heartbreaking moment in the podcast where >> it was after Deborah had left him.

But then she actually moved back in with him again. And the interviewer like paused on it and asked about that specifically. He said, "But didn't you just so you just visited the attorney to change your will?" >> Yeah. >> So that your kids would get everything. And she said, "Yeah, because I was afraid if he knew he would get it, he might kill me." >> Right. >> But after doing that, you moved back in with him. >> Yeah. >> And she she said, "I know it doesn't make sense, but I was just really lonely and he was telling me that he loved me and that I was beautiful." >> Yeah. >> And I and some people will make fun of that.

Um, I mean, I have heard that in conversations at parties when Dirty John comes up or I've mentioned to people that, you know, we were going to be recording this. >> But I I think it's missing the point of how lonely some people Yeah. >> are. And if you're and if you don't have >> you're missing some strong relationships. There's been a divorce. Now your kids are grown and they're off doing their own thing. And unfortunately, there are horrible people that will will prey on that. >> Yeah. So, like I was saying about that power and control wheel. So, once you've isolated that person and once you've walled off everything that they could go to.

>> Yeah. >> So, it's like they don't want to I I don't necessarily want to be with him, but I don't have anywhere else to go. I don't want to be with him, but I don't have access to this. I don't I have I've I've burned my bridges with my friends. I have no money. I have nowhere else to go. Right? and he's now apologizing for the crazy thing, right? >> And I it it's easier for my current situation of like just shelter and you know to to believe his that he is truly uh sorry about this and then to come back and I would say that is very true what I've seen what's what is so heartbreaking is domestic violence cases where um the victims oftentimes recant their story or go back to their abuser.

We had one in Lagona >> where he they had broken up or she had texted him. She was done. He he bursts into the house. She is has another guy waiting. They're going to go on a date. She's in the bathroom and she is curling her hair. He bursts into the bathroom. He takes the curling iron. He uh puts it around her forearm >> and thirdderee burns her forearm. Wow. >> We were able to arrest him for torture. >> Yeah. >> Because of the degree of burns. >> Yeah. >> Okay. This is not the first time he had attacked her either. When we interviewed her that night as she's like being transported to the hospital, he had attacked her multiple times and they had stayed together and gotten back together and had this volatile relationship.

He had been to jail before for domestic violence. We are in the trial and I'm sitting on the table with the prosecutor. He's on the other side. We're in the trial. She is our star witness. Right. Like there is That's the hard thing about domestic violence. If you don't have a cooperative victim, it's really hard to to get a conviction. >> Yeah. >> She is scowlling at me >> the entire time. And so my our prosecutor kind of picks up on that and goes, you know, you you seem very angry. Like, are you angry at him? Yeah. >> It's like, no. >> Who are you angry at? He goes, "Her." >> Why are you angry at her?

>> Because she told him things that I said and now he thinks I don't love him. >> Yeah. >> On the stand, she has third degree. They're not even healed on her arm. >> And I'm thinking like, "Oh, this poor girl. Like, this is like you're going to die. There's no way." Right? Like, but there is there's something about the power, you know? So, it's like the power and control that that put these victims in this spiral where it's really hard to get out. And yeah, it could be loneliness, but it's almost like induced lonely like where it's like you've created you've created a situation where I don't think there's anywhere else to go, right?

You know, it's like I it's I I don't think that I have any other options. And I've I've also sadly I've had situations where we have arrested the abuser. Our victim was very willing and cooperative and then they get to arraignment and the DA kicks the case because you don't have an independent witness, >> right? >> And it's like it's just he said, she said, and all of her bruises and broken bones and then they don't think they have a strong enough case. >> Yeah. >> Is she ever going to call the police again? >> Right. Right. And is she probably going to go back to him? Like, you know, you know what I mean?

It's like that there's that situation, too. So, I mean, that's what's so powerful about about those types of abusers is they, you know, and I I as I handle a lot of sex assault and I would say like it it would be better to be murdered than raped because at least if you're murdered, you don't have to live with it. And I feel like when you're living as a domestic violence victim and you're not able to kind of escape that person who has that control over you, yeah, you're living in this nightmare, this a never- ending nightmare. And so, yeah, >> again, >> yes, it was super fun to be a detective, but I took it so personally and seriously that I had that opportunity to protect people in domestic violence and sex assault.

And I would count I mean sex stalking that was we I worked with the domestic violence DA. that was who that's like the umbrella of crime that it falls under. Um but yeah, I I really did feel like, you know, >> hey, if they've come in, if they're willing to report, if we're if we've got them in this moment, then we have an opportunity to protect them and and they don't often come in, you know. So, even in that case, she didn't know that it was a crime. She had tried all these things before she ever came for months. This started in January. Now she is in April and she finally comes into us. So >> when I know how much it's clear how much you care about all of these people that have had really bad things happen to them and and protecting them or standing up for them, helping them to get justice and and your work there.

And I and just to take a quick second, I I can make sense of you saying that being a detective is, you know, use the word fun or interesting. It makes sense to me when I think about say Like if you're going to have brain surgery, I want the guy who just thinks brain surgery is really interesting and he's the best at it and he turns on some music and he's just in he's not thinking about, oh man, this would be really sad for Nick's family were he to not come out of this surgery, right? It's just he's a little bit >> removed from it. even though I'm sure after the fact he could be very empathetic and and be like, "No, that's I'm so glad Nick came out of it for all his loved ones." >> Um, but there is an interesting like excellence often has a little bit of detachment in the moment because you have to be razor sharp and just executing on the thing you're executing.

>> Yeah. >> Um, and so it makes sense to me what you're saying there and I I just wanted to clarify in case >> Yes. I think no I so for me it was I will say so when I when I became a detective like one of my first cases was an 11 victim sexual assault like a a serial rapist >> um I hadn't gone to sexual assault school yet um and I took 11 rape reports in a row >> and I did not realize how that impacted me. I I mean obviously it impacted me and then I went to sexual assault school and it's a week in Sacramento which no offense to Sacramento but I was like so one of the I look at the schedule and one of the days is wellness for the investigator.

It's literally eight hours of wellness for the investigator and I'm like >> we could have made this four days. We're like we don't what is this? I don't need a wellness for the investigator day. I would like to leave Sacramento a day earlier. So, we're on like day four of this class. >> And she starts talking about all the ways that your cases can impact you and >> how it's so hard not to take it personally, to internalize it, to um care so much about your victims that it impacts your personal life and the things you need to do to kind of protect yourself. And I'm sitting there being like, "Oh, they're talking about me." Like, this is and it was I think as a new detective, you're, you know, you're just kind of, "Okay, this is the case." and you're just everyone's worst moment you're documenting.

>> Yeah. >> You know, and then you're trying to figure out how can I protect them and uh and it wasn't until that moment that it was like, all right, yeah, there's an impact here and if I'm going to be good at my job, I have to finish my case and give it to the prosecutor and whatever happens happens and not dwell on, you know, whatever the outcome is because juries can be real funny. you know, they they they choose to not guilty things that you're like, in what world, right? But so I had to kind of detach from that, but also I like you're saying the brain, I was really good at it. Like I I really enjoyed the work of it because it was like it was made for me.

Like I I I was an accounting major. I'm really good at kind of I could look at a spreadsheet for 24 hours. I worked in corporate auditing. Like I I was good at that part of it. Like when we had this home invasion robbery, um he ended up stealing the victim's cell phone and then continuing to use it. So we were able to track this cell phone and we had this hot list of all these people. We're able to literally solve the case because he continued to use our victim's cell phone and for a period of time. Um but I could sit and look at cell phone records for 12 hours and not get tired of that. I I appreciated uh you know having a connection with the victims and I think as a female >> typically they I would get called in the middle of the night just just on a like a patrol response to a sexual assault and they'd be like she doesn't want to talk to a male officer and I'm coming in at 2 a.m.

as a detective like and I'm talking to that person. I appreciated that opportunity. I appreciated >> um being the person that was kind of the calm and that social that's like what was fun to me. >> Fun, you know, we would do drug busts and things. That's fun, right? Being undercover, that's fun. We did some really fun uh like kind of proactive detective work. But I think when I was able to be an advocate for a victim or I was able to like actually put someone in prison for the thing, that felt really, really good. And even now, like last week, I'm in a PTA meeting and a DA calls and our serial rapist was finally convicted, you know, uh sentenced.

>> Yeah. to to like 60 years to life. This is 13 years. >> What's the delay in that? Why did it take so long? >> That's another aspect of the justice system. If you have a good attorney and you have the money, you can create delays. COVID had something to do with it. Um, and then, you know, you keep firing your attorney and get new attorneys and so those those are delays. And the courts are impacted. So, they all h they always have other cases they can hear. They don't need to hear your case. Um, I do believe there was a tactic of like trying to see how many of my victims would die before it would get to trial so they wouldn't have anyone to testify.

Wow. >> Um, but it was it just took forever and forever. But here I am sitting at a PTA meeting. >> You know, I haven't been a detective >> since 2014. Yeah. >> I haven't put handcuffs on someone in six or seven years. And I am sitting there and I get this call and I'm like, I'm right back in it. Like I'm so like justice for this person, you And I'm literally like, "So I can throw away my case notes." She's like, "You can throw away your case notes. Like, you'll never go." But I I loved it so much. And really, I thought that was going to be my path that I would just be a lifetime detective. Um, and then being a mom kind of took the the driver's seat and uh, you know, I don't know that I could ever have done it again, but I um, but no, I it was fun in a way of like I'm really good at this thing and I know that I'm having an impact.

The second time that I solved a h Okay, so that crazy case I end up in Ventura for the grand jury. Uh the end of the story is that I'm sitting in my office two years after I had investigated this missing person. I knew he had been murdered. I just didn't know how and where and could not the DA would not keep approving my search warrants. They said, "It's not a crime to be missing." I had to tell the family, "I'm so sorry. I don't know what else to do, but I know that he was murdered." Two years later, I'm sitting in my office as a detective. My phone rings >> and I'm like, "Detective Bowman." He says, "Oh, this is so and so from Ventura PD." Okay.

Did you write a Did you do a missing person flyer for Jeffrey Corber? Yeah. Okay. So, we have reason we have an informant who is telling us that he was murdered by a member of the Mexican mafia and he is still in a freezer uh that's in a storage unit um in this area. Would you mind sending us your your your case file? I said, I'll do one better. I got a search warrant for you. It's two years old. Just refresh it. You're ready to go. I sent him 300 pages of notes on this search of everything I'd ever done. >> Yeah. >> 30 minutes later, he calls me. He goes, "Okay, my whole detective bureau is in the room.

Why did you treat this like a homicide? Like you've done the work for us." >> Yeah. >> We're about to go serve your search warrant. And I said, "Cuz I knew it. Like I knew he had been murdered." >> Yeah. >> And 15 minutes later, they find him >> and still in a freezer. like to me. So I go to the end of So I get off the phone, go to the end of the hall, tell my detective sergeant, they found Jeffrey Corver he was murdered and he's like you did it again and I'm like yeah but it was like oh I'm ready for the next one like you know what I mean like let's go find the next person you know and and it does it I in that case that was sad be I mean so sad for many reasons but his mother had died in the waiting in those two years his mother had died not knowing whatever happened to her son things like that which >> maybe we could have found that out earlier But no, I I I loved it.

It was like the best job in the world. Again, >> I don't think everyone should be a cop, but like you have this skill set, like you should use it, you know? >> Yeah. >> So, in the Dirty John situation, >> it did. It's like I I would love to be an advocate for women and I would love to stand up for them and say the things and like, you know, that shouldn't be happening at parties. Should people shouldn't be making fun of, you know, kind of how Deborah kind of fell fell victim to this thing. And to me, that's the thing of like, well, then we're not doing a good enough job of explaining what the crime is and explaining what the the danger is, you know?

>> Well, that was part of the reason I wanted to talk to you on here because, >> okay, it's all well and good that at a party I said what what I had to say about it. We kind of it's like, well, I maybe you don't understand the full context of the situation. We discussed it, but okay, then that affects that one or two people. This >> Yeah, >> it's a it's a big idea. Yeah, I mean all the stuff that you've brought up the the stalking and and that it's not >> uh just the the the impact that it has on people's lives and it is much more complicated than a >> but I also think you it you it needs to be known like these people exist, you know, like to what to your point about just kind of being open and accepting to people and providing information and letting people in and it's like even with our kids and you know giving them phones and chat rooms on roadblocks.

Like I feel like it extends to all those things of like there are bad people in this world and they are very savvy at finding ways to exploit and threaten and destroy. And I think that we we so crap I can't remember what it is. There's this theory basically that the reason why we victim blame Okay, so I I leave my car unlocked in the driveway, right? And someone, Crime of Opportunity, opens the door, pulls out my wallet. I put it on the neighborhood Facebook page. Hey, did anyone's car get broken into last night? Somebody stole my wallet. Yeah. >> Well, did you lock your car? >> Right. >> No, I didn't lock my car.

Well, you should always lock your car, right? Did anyone else's car get broken into? Cuz mine, somebody took my wallet last night, right? But we victim blame because we need to to hold on to the idea that people are good that people are inherently good and if that could happen to you and it's not your fault then that could happen to me and I cannot that would shatter my worldview right >> it's like a it's called like the just society theory or something like that but it's like we must believe that society is just that everyone is out for good so that's why we blame the victim. Right. And so >> there's also a loss of control.

That's right. Right. Because if >> So your your example with the car door is a really good one because when you said that immediately I just thought, man, I just did that the other night. Right. >> Right. >> And that if the car was broken into in that moment, well, if somebody says, "Well, did you lock the car?" Then they're telling themselves, "Well, I can't get broken into because I do the right things." >> And it's the same thing when it comes to these more heinous crimes. there. It's this subconscious need to to blame people. Not to be malicious towards them, but to for yourself to not be scared and go, "Well, I I do all the things to stay safe." >> That's right.

>> So, I'm in control. >> Like, I can't believe that that's the world we live in. And I think that's >> that's where I think, you know, for those of us who have seen all the crazy things, it's just kind of like, yeah, that's the world we live in. You know, like when my neighbor gives their six-year-old a iPhone with no parental controls, I'm like, "What?" And they're like, "Oh, it's cuz you're a cop." And I'm like, "Yes, yes, it's cuz I'm a cop." That like do not give your your six-year-old an iPhone with no parental controls. Like, you are literally giving them predators coming to your doorstep, right?

Like I Yes. Because I've seen all the ways that it can go wrong and I've seen all the things people can do. But I think, you know, and that happens to, you know, I mean, that the >> Oh, so the car door. Yeah. >> That that's a true story. That literally happened to me. And when the police showed up, >> I'm like they're like, oh, they're like, what's missing? Oh, my police ID. They're like, wait, you're a cop? Yeah, I'm a cop. And my husband's just like, >> you know, but it's like that's a true story that literally I'm like, right. I'm also a a tired mom who sometimes leaves my keys in the front door.

like I I'm doing my very best here, you know? It's like but >> yes, we we turn it on the victim of like something must be wrong with you that that this happened to you >> cuz it it cannot happen to me. I can't think that that a John me hand would come after me or my daughter or you know >> uh so I think >> it's too terrifying of a thought to want to even entertain. That's right. Especially when you said my daughter like immediately I'm just like yeah that that scares me to my core. >> Yeah. No, I and I I think that's, you know, that's too of like we couldn't get a restraining order. >> Yeah. >> Because it's like, well, you're a cop, you can't be scared.

You know, it's like those types of things of like this doesn't really happen. He's not after you, you know, and it's like >> it it it then to kind of hear the end of the story, it's like this could have gone so badly another way, you know, so so badly. Like, and Tara, I mean, man, that that girl's she is the hero of the whole story. I mean, the fact that she had like the survival instinct to fight back against him, you know, and mind you, so when we interviewed him, I think he was like 230, 240. >> Yeah. >> When she was attacked, he was like 170. >> Like he was so not >> not like minimizing her fighting back of him, but like >> he was not that that big guy that he had been, you know, but he was still probably outweigh her by she was a she was very small, you know.

Um, and the fact that she overtook him and then stabbed him through the eye. I mean, it does. It's like this is the way. He was a zombie. He needed to go. Like, this wasn't going to end any other way. >> Yeah. Absolutely. A hero, though. I mean, you got to think nine times out of 10. It's not just the physical disadvantage. It's that he has a knife and she does not. He knows he's going to go attack her. She has no idea this is coming. Yes. >> That almost always ends with him killing the victim and then going on to probably try to kill somebody else. >> Yeah. And I think there's also like what we were talking before about Deborah, you know, kind of growing up in a household where you forgive the the man for murdering your daughter kind of thing.

I also think that a most people are not it it would be very difficult for them, you know, to to shoot back, to fight back, to stab someone. We're not trying to murder anyone, right? Like, and we're not trying to hurt anyone. It's the same as like I remember going to pit school. I mean, this is not exactly the same, but going to pit school where you learn how to literally hit another car. Yeah. So, we're in the police car and there's the rabbit car in front of us and the instructor's like, "Okay, so just tap the bumper with your car." And I'm like, >> so I'm hitting the car. I just want to confirm I'm I'm not gonna get written up.

I'm, you know, it's like >> everything in me does not want to hit this car right now. Everything that I've been trained my whole life, you don't hit other cars, right? And I think like you you're not I I do think that most people unless you train, you know, jiu-jitsu, you train boxing, you're in a you know u you're a police officer, you're in the military where like this is part of your training is getting in fights with people. Yeah. >> You're not you just kind of your first instinct is not to fight back. You know, your first instinct is to get away is to not like >> and so I think that was what was amazing too that she was like I have to kill him.

>> Yeah. you know, and otherwise if she had not acted in that way, she would have died. >> And thank goodness for The Living Dead. >> I know. Which I I've never seen that show, but I was I was like or The Walking Dead. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. The Living Dead. They're telling me that and I'm like, "All right." Like, I don't even know what that means. I'm less inclined to watch the show now that you've said that, but it's like, but yeah. No, I think it is. It's And you use what you got in that survival moment, you know? You kind of fall back to to those things. So, >> yeah. Well, Julia, this has been uh a real pleasure and insightful and interesting and just all the all the stuff.

Um gosh, now I mean I feel like we could just go on for another like three hours asking about the other cases. >> I feel like I gave you all these Easter eggs of all these other interesting cases. >> We may have to run it back at some point, you know, in in a few months and just go, okay, let's talk about the Mexican Mexican mafia murder. >> That's a good one. That really is a good one. if you ever want to talk about that one. That one. So, we I was actually supposed to I was like pursued on that one, but it was right before COVID and then everything kind of shut down from CO and then um the police kind of fell out of favor for a while there, so they weren't making a lot of police stories.

Um >> which is fine. I mean, like again, it's like I'm not in the business of making news, you know. Um but >> that case was so so interesting. That was that was a really interesting one. But I I mean I don't know. There's there's lots of lots of great cases, but nothing nothing quite like Dirty John. Like this is just it's next level. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for taking the time and for all the good work >> you've done in the world and continue to do and >> happy to do it. >> For spreading this >> Yeah. >> message. Um. Yeah. All right. >> Cool. Thank you. >> Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions.

Don't accept the status quo and be curious. >> The Nick Stanley Show.