Modern Etiquette with Myka Meier : "It's Social-Emotional Intelligence"

Have you ever wondered what it takes to truly put your best foot forward in the world? My guest today, Micah Meyer, is not your typical etiquette teacher. Micah is the founder of Beaumont etiquette. She's also the brains behind the Plaza Hotel finishing program and the author of two best-selling etiquette books. She contends that etiquette is much more than simply knowing which fork or knife to hold and win. Etiquette is striving to put the best version of ourselves into the world. And to learn how to do just that, here's my conversation with Micah. Micah, how are you doing today? Hello, I'm so well.

Thank you very much for having me on. It's been too long, but I'm so excited that we could reconnect today. It is amazing. It is. It is. I'm very excited to have you here. And I think everybody's going to learn a lot. So in today's modern world, is etiquette, passé, and outdated? Why does this matter to us? You know, I get this question all the time. And it is a very good question because when we think of etiquette, we think of all these old-fashioned things our grandparents used to teach us and swear by. But actually, really as society evolves, etiquette has to evolve with it. So what we would practice 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, even one year ago, might not be relevant to today.

And etiquette is just about kindness and respect and thinking of everyone before yourself. So if you think of etiquette, you kind of retrain your brain to think of etiquette in that way, you can see how relevant it is to every single day. So technology etiquette. I mean, it's a big political year, you know, talking politics with people, you know, disagreeing about things or relationships, dating, school. I mean, jobs, there's so much that applies to etiquette every day. So I actually think it's more relevant today than ever before, really. Would you say etiquette is a form of social, emotional intelligence?

100%. It's etiquette is way more than just which fork and knife to pick up. And that's what people think. When they first come to an etiquette, you know, course, that's what they think they're learning. And often our clients are sort of mind-blown at what they come out of the class or the course learning. So it's all about connecting with other people, exactly how you set it. And it's emotional intelligence. And I always say you could be the best dressed person in the room. You could have the highest IQ in the room, the smartest cookie there is on your team and your class, whatever it is. But if you aren't connecting with people and you don't have social intelligence, emotional intelligence, then you were probably missing a trick here.

But the good news, I will say the good news is that it can be learned. And emotional and social intelligence is something that, you know, is with a little bit of practice, a few techniques, anyone can get better at. That's the good news. I liked in your business etiquette made easy book. You said it's like a superpower or a secret that anyone can learn that will suddenly create opportunities for you if you're being more mindful of how you present yourself in the world. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yes, 100 brain that's it. So a lot of what we teach, especially in our business courses, we work with small startups, all the way to Fortune 100s.

And within these courses, you know, we kind of always explain and I love to teach people that they are a breed. So you are walking, living, breathing, billboard at all times. And you tell people how to treat you by the way you compose yourself, by the way you dress yourself, by the way you interact with other people. So if you're not getting the reactions you want from, you know, business colleagues, potential clients, friends, then sometimes, you know, changing a few tiny things in the way that you communicate or present yourself. And I'm not just talking about physically, really can make such a difference.

Even little energy shifts people react to respond to. So I think is it's crucial. People want to do business with and socialize with people that they like. People want to, you know, if we have a connection, we want to do business together. We want to, you know, work together, socialize together. So if you can master that, then and have those connections and build that report, then you'll be the person that they call. Sure, sure. Well, and I think our meeting each other speaks to that, right? It was an event a long time ago for the National Charity League. And I was unsure of who this keynote speaker was, Meyer, who was going to talk about etiquette.

And I thought, we'll have to find a way to spice up this subject. But as soon as you arrived, even before you took the stage, I noticed right away, I thought, you know, this woman has good energy. She's really composed. And then we chatted for a little bit. And very quickly, I was like, my preconceived notions around etiquette are completely wrong. Like she has a whole new way of thinking about this. Subject. And then the talk was fantastic. And care. Yeah. And then here we are years later. And that's how the world works, right? We like to work with people that we enjoy spending time with. Exactly.

You're spot on. And I remember your energy very specifically. I remember when my team forwarded me this email and they said, Hey, what do you think about this podcast? And I was like, Oh my gosh, was my reaction because I remember that. And we, you know, so. And even though it was years ago and happy almost 100th birthday. And say all by the way, at the National Charity League conference there in California, you remember people and a lot of it is that first impression. And a lot of times people say, well, you know, there's that old saying, you have one chance to make a first impression. And I went back in my notes to see what I was talking about at that conference.

And this is one of those topics that I still think is relevant. And, and it's one of those things where people say, Oh, you have one chance. Like blue that, you know, I had one. You know, I blew that. But I actually like to tell people that every day it's a fresh day to make a first impression. So if you've been, you know, in the same social group of people or colleagues. And you think, Oh, they've known me for two years now. And I'm just for that in their eyes. Well, actually tomorrow is the first day of rest of your life. And you get to go in and make a new first impression tomorrow. So it's not too late.

And it's never too late. And that's what I love to reteach with etiquette and how you present yourself as well. Yeah. And I think it's absolutely possible to make internal personal changes. And then people who you've known for years, suddenly that interaction will change for the better. That's a good positive message. Yeah. People, you know, it's one of those things where people think, Oh, I should have learned this when I was a teenager. I should have done this when I was, and I say, actually, no, this is, that's, I didn't learn this when I was a teenager either. I only learned as an adult and anyone can start over.

That's right. Micah, am I holding this water correctly? It's just good etiquette. Okay. Well, well, it's not that incorrect etiquette, but it's, it's not correct in the way that you're holding it. And I will only because you've asked me, am I correcting you? Because I always say, I never give us, listen to advice. People, people always think I'm going to walk around like a ruler in my hand. But if you ask, I go out. And so the only way, so just now you had your pinky out. I know we don't need that pinky out. We actually have our pinkies in and the whole water glass is just fingers together at the bottom of the glass.

So you don't heat the glass or leave fingerprints in the glass. And the pinky actually historically was used for tea, tea cups back in the 1600s when tea just first came over from, from Asia because you were serving these tiny little cups. So for balance, you had your pinky out. But as quantities of tea became larger, you obviously had larger cups, the Germans or the Saxons at the time invented the, the tea handle. And once that tea handle came in, the pinky came in and never to come out again. But a lot of people still when they're cutting things or holding drinks, put the pinky out, but it's not needed.

It's, it's so in modern etiquette, we can just drop the pinky. I like it. There was a story I wanted to share with you. And it, it was a memory that popped up while I was reading your book, etiquette made easy, which for all the viewers out there is fantastic, by the way. Best book I've ever come across on this subject. Thank you. I was in 10th grade drama and this is intermediate drama in the 10th grade. It's headache. The drama teacher split all of us into pairs, right? You're with one other actor or actress. And I was paired with Sally Barrett. We have to sit down face to face. And I'm really nervous to, to run this exercise with her.

And the teacher gave us this sentence. It's about the most boring seven words in the English language. I took two socks from the drawer. And the exercise was we had to sit face to face. And I had to repeat that phrase 100 times in a row without saying it the same way two times. And then her job was to listen, actively listen as I say the sentence. And I'm nervous, right? I start out kind of a little bit jokingly like I took two socks from the drawer. I took two socks from the drawer and she's given me kind of polite laughs, but my nervousness is really coming across, right? And it's maybe the 25th, 26th rep into this.

And I suddenly I slow down and I look her in the eyes. And I say, I took two socks from the drawer and she pulls back. And there's like a little gasp and she says, that was good. And there was this quiet moment of tension between us. And suddenly this exercise makes sense to me. I mean, it was an epiphany that it's not the words that we're saying. It's how we're saying them. And then as I moved through the exercise, I realized I could communicate just about anything to her if I was mindful of how I was speaking. It could be confidence. It could be trepidation and nervousness. It could be attraction.

It could be any array of human emotions. And this silly little exercise and drama had this major impact on my life going forward. Because in that moment, I really realized it's not what you're saying. It's how you say it to someone. And I just wanted you to speak for a moment on the importance of nonverbal communication as we move through the world. Oh, I love that story. That's so good. And what a good exercise. I might nip that one and call it nicks. Exercise in my next training. So that's really good. Actually, you know, I think that I actually train with an entire nonverbal, we do a whole nonverbal section on communications.

Interestingly, one that a lot of people in business are interested in. There's just two main exercises that we lead off with. And one is actually about we show different faces. We ask people to identify and kind of vote to say what each face says to them. And the only two elements of the face of this person are the eyes and the mouth. Eyes and mouth, eyes and the mouth. And these are the same photos in my business book that we used. And it's all about how just the eyes and the mouth can make such a difference in the way that you are communicating. And if you can recognize the differences, then you can learn for spawns.

If you're talking to somebody and they're using a negative, more of a negative, eye and mouth combination together, then you need to switch up what you're saying. And then you know how to respond about them. The other one is understanding how when you are not speaking, and this is really important. Some people say, why don't you have to look at somebody in the eye versus one can I look away? And my rule is always if somebody's talking, you lock eyes with them the entire time. You never look away. And when you're talking, it's fine and natural to look away and come back, look up, look down, as you're thinking, and then lock eyes again.

But once your turn to watch somebody else is there speaking, you shouldn't just lock eyes and that's it because that comes across very natural. Instead, you're showing that you're agreeing or that you're understanding through little movements like leaning in or nodding your head or turning the position of your head or putting your chin down or even squinting your eyes. So all of these little exercises together are nonverbal communication. Another exercise we do there, we actually show pictures of a dog. And obviously, dog doesn't have many facial expressions, but we show the different head tilts and people write what those head tilts mean and they're spot on every single time.

And what a veterinarian said, the head tilt meant because it was his voice, giving the commands. And it just shows, I know we as humans are still animals and we still respond to these same head movements and nonverbal cues. It's nature. And if you learn these things, it's really interesting in how you can implement them every day to connect with people. So even if you don't know what to talk about with somebody, you can still have an amazing conversation. Even if you say very few words, just by the way that your nonverbal communication is being portrayed. So I mean, I think it's fascinating. That is all etiquette.

That's all, you know, etiquette is so varying. And that's just an example of something you can teach somebody. And when somebody says, well, how is that etiquette? Etiquette is about protocol or this or that. Remember, etiquette is about connecting with other people, social intelligence, emotional intelligence, kindness and respect and making people feel comfortable. And therefore having that communication and good communication, that is very important. Now, I thought there was a really interesting tip in the book along those lines about when you want to connect with someone and seem friendly to look into their left eye.

Yes. Can you talk about that idea for a second? Because I have tried that since reading the book and it really does work, but I don't completely understand why. It's unnatural for us as humans typically to look into the person's left eye. We naturally gravitate toward the right eye. So when I'm looking at your left eye, what's happening is I'm breaking posture because it's unnatural. So I'm breaking posture, I'm leaning into you to look into your left eye. And by doing that, my shoulders coming in and I'm kind of breaking that barrier, I'm coming into you, which is an honorable cue for interest and engagement.

It takes away that assertive looking posture. Now, when I want to come across more, so that's more like, the left eye like, about leaning in, then I want to come across more assertive. I switch eyes. By switching eyes, I square my posture and I take on that more authoritative stance. Hence, the left eye likable versus right eye, I mean business. And you can use that. I mean, you can use that in so many different parts of your life. Even the example I always give is I fly so much, I travel a lot. And even you've got a missed flight, you've got a late flight, you need to get on another flight, and you have to come across really likable to that desk attendant who was not having it.

And how do you do that outside of your words? It's through your body language. And I use that trick last week with the flight with the reception desk to get rebooked faster when everybody is screaming and rude. And I was like, huh, I'm just going to try this again. And guess who got on the plane? Just saying. Yeah, another one that came to mind and someone had told me this a long time ago, especially in business situations is to pay attention to someone's eyes. And if they are smiling, but their eyes are not smiling, they might be leading you astray, not being completely forthright with you, even outright lying.

And I have found that's a really good indicator of what someone's intentions are. Yeah, I completely agree. When we're training in this type of course, we actually have people read out different messages. And even though the message is very positive, we ask them to shift their eyes and their mouths in the negative versus the positive to show the difference. So the message remains the same. And then we ask the class to vote, which is believable, which is even there's five or six questions. One is believable, one is trustworthy, one is likable, one is friendly, one is cold. And we go into the negatives.

The pinch of the eye can mean a couple of things that can mean either you're thinking and you're processing, or I don't believe you, or I'm not with you, I don't like you, or what? And it's or the pinch, you know, with the pinch. So that's the negative or the pinch can mean, huh, it's interesting. So it's your mouth, your eyes, and also the head nods and the other nonverbal communication together. So there's a lot to learn, but a lot of this, you know, is about charisma too, and adds to people who are very charismatic. It's they have this down pat sometimes more naturally than other people. And sometimes people have to learn it.

Okay, Micah, let's go back to the beginning. Where did you grow up? And then how did you discover etiquette? I was born in Sarasota, Florida. I'm a Florida native. My dad is from Barbados. My mom is from Boston. And, you know, I grew up very casually, very, you know, my dad is a sailor. So sailboats and orange groves and beaches and no formal etiquette training at all. But, you know, I always, my parents were very, very into being the nice kid and always inviting people to join us and teaching compassion and that little boy is sitting by himself. Why don't you come and, you know, invite him to join you?

And I think that is where I got a lot of what I teach today. It wasn't taught in a formal finishing school. It was it was from my childhood and that compassion. It was only until I was in a dolt. I was 25 and I moved to England. And I took my first etiquette class in in London. And I went to learn formal dining etiquette training because I was in a position at communications job, a PR job where I was hosting people all the time, especially a lot of older, more sophisticated clients and journalists. And I was so insecure. I was so I remember being scared, really scared when I got the invitation to go to a formal dinner in London and I and one in New York too.

And I thought, Oh my goodness, what am I going to do? This is you remember, you know, trying to find books of the library to read. It was actually my boyfriend at the time who said, I who was Swiss educated and very formal. And he said, why don't you go take an etiquette course? And I thought, Oh, okay. You know, maybe not much. I'm not really that kind of person. It's very, you know, formal and things. And so he was like, this is my treat go. And I think the best thing ever. But at the time, it's just not something you really want your boyfriend or partner, you know, to say to you, but I went and I came back and I remember I walked in the house.

And I remember he said, how was it? And I was like, I felt like shy in life. I was so excited about what I learned. And the dining etiquette portion of it was probably 30% of the course. And the rest was about conversation at the table and five things you could, you know, say to anyone to come across likeable and all these amazing, amazing things. And I thought to myself, wait a second, I didn't know this was etiquette. So the next Friday, when everyone got their paychecks, I would save up. Everyone would run to H&M and, you know, and I would save up. And I would try to wait for my next etiquette course so I could afford a new one to learn the next topic.

And that was my love affair. That's how it all began is without one first class as an adult. Excellent. Yeah. And this came up in conversation the other night since I was going through your book to prepare for the interview. And so I've been talking to everybody around me about it. I brought up the part in the book where you mentioned that the fork and the knife was only 30% of it. And that one of the things that that first etiquette teacher impressed upon you is that good etiquette and being a good host means going and finding that person who's uncomfortable at the party or that person who might be in the corner withdrawn a little bit from the group and approaching them and bringing them into the group.

And a lot of people really identified with that. There was one gentleman in particular. He said, I don't know what the difference between a soup spoon and another spoon might be. And he said, but I really try to be mindful of bringing people in in social situations. And he thought that that was a much more important form of etiquette. And what else did she that first etiquette teacher teach you beyond the tactics of etiquette and really into the philosophy of etiquette? Her name is Diane Meether actually. I still am very close with her today. She was teaching confidence. She and although she didn't say that to me, that's something that now is one of my favorite parts of my job.

I get to teach confidence through etiquette. She was explaining that dressing is not just for yourself. Of course, it's for your own confidence and feel good, but you'd rest as your respect to the person you're meeting with. So to look your best is wonderful for you as well. But it's to show people you didn't just roll out of bed to meet them. And I loved that message too. We would play this little conversation where she would say something kind of bland or something and then she would say, okay, and how would you respond to that? Or what would you think? And I would say what I thought, and she's okay, but she was maybe what we could do.

Let's turn into a positive. And really teaching that etiquette is just about making other people feel comfortable. And now what I do, I did not learn this next lesson from her, but it's something that kind of stemmed from that initial thought process to where I am now is when you connect with someone, if you could find what they need, you will be so much better off in building rapport. So if I see somebody at the party by themselves, they look in secure from the body language, or maybe they don't, but they're still by themselves, then introducing yourself, bringing them in. If there's somebody already in the circle, and they're saying that they're having a hard time finding a job, asking, you know, with no expectation of return asking.

So is there, you know, what exactly do you want to do? Let me think if there's anybody I can connect you to, who exactly, or what, you know, what's the dream jump? And little things like that, and suddenly see their facelift, may they see hope. So when connecting with other people and business or social circumstances, it's something that I really pick up on and that I teach that you can, you know, if you can find what that person needs, and you can help them or offer some support in some way, you will instantly connect with them. It's not about giving to get back. It's about just connections. And there's, you know, this whole belief that the more people you connect with on a daily basis, the happier people, generally speaking, are.

And I really believe that. So if you can make those connections daily with people, you're generally a more happy person. You give to people, it feels good, you see them light up, and you become a happier person. Yeah, I think that's spot on. The last guest that I had on was talking about a lot of happiness research, and that so much of it just comes back to the simple act of connecting with others. And I like that this is a nice piggyback onto that, and that this is getting into some of the specifics on how to connect with others, because it's great to know that connecting with other people and friendship, connection, healthy relationships, that that will lead to happiness.

But your courses, your books, everything you're saying here today can be really helpful to people because it's specific ways to help improve your ability to connect with others. That's exactly right. And I just, you know, that's important to me. I feel like we all have a lot of information. There's a lot of content out there. But for me, I need really tangible, like, I want takeaways. When I take a course, I want takeaways. I want next steps. So what do I do today that can make me feel instantly more confident if I walk into that networking event alone, or, you know, I teach little things like when you walk into a room and you feel nervous, like, what are the things you should do first?

What are the things you can do to calm yourself? And so that's how I think, and that's how I train. But I think it's that's really important. Because, yes, of course, we all know that Christmas is wonderful. But how do you achieve it? What do you do? So that's kind of what I went out to do is say, okay, I'm going to give you the tools. Here we go. And they're in the release to learn. Well, speaking of specifics, how should we enter a room? The first thing you want to do is make sure whatever you're carrying is in the last hand, because your right hand is to, you know, shake or wave or whatever your greeting might be.

If let's say there's a drink and food, you won't each choose one at a time, or you're sitting. So you shouldn't have a plate full of hors d'oeuvres and louse, because that makes you instantly unapproachable. People aren't going to come up to you, you're busy, you're preoccupied. Obviously put it put down your phone. I call our phones, our adult comfort blankets. And yes, but being on your phone means don't talk to me. Even if you're doing it because you're nervous and you don't know anybody, it instantly makes you unapproachable. I think having, again, eyes open, mouth open shows your receptive to people.

So if I walk into a party and my eyes are open, my mouth's pinched, I'm like, oh, I don't want to be here. You have to show, you have to show you want to be there. So if my eyes open, mouth open, you're ready to talk, you're ready to socialize. The first thing you should do is go get a drink. It doesn't have to be alcoholic, give me anything, whatever it is for you. And holding a drink makes you look instantly more comfortable and that you're there to stay. Otherwise just walking around with your hands or fiddling with your fingers makes you look nervous. Sometimes keeping, of course, good posture, you could have the greatest suit on in the room.

And if your posture shows that you're not confident, you don't want to be there, you're not going to be attracting the kind of people that you might want to talk to that evening. And I think also make sure you're moving throughout the event, because most people I find come into an event and they find their people and they stand still. So if you're the one constantly moving, constantly walking around, you'll meet so many more people. And then I think don't be afraid to introduce yourself. Do not be afraid to introduce yourself. It is so important. The amount of people, every single event I go to that I end up usually being, I find one of the only people that I is actually and proactively introducing themselves.

And then the amount of people that say, oh, that was so nice. That was wow, that was really, you know, or it was so thank you for coming and coming up and saying hi, because they're almost shocked that I did that. And I find that shocking. So once you know how to do how to introduce yourself and how to have the confidence to do that, then it's, you know, it's pretty easy. I make it kind of like a game where in some times I walk around like, let me see how many new new connections I can make tonight. And even if I'm not feeling super, super, you know, outgoing or energized that night, that's my little game I play with myself.

And I usually come away with some pretty interesting contacts. Well, sure. And it makes sense in a business situation. You want to meet more people. But even just the social situation interacting with new people that you don't already know that you're not already comfortable with is going to make life more interesting. Exactly. I actually introduced myself to my husband and walked straight up to him and introduced myself to him. So when people say, oh, you know, I could never, it's not, you know, what is the fear of rejection? I said, well, so what if it doesn't work out or the person has a significant other, they're not interested in their cold back and then whatever.

But you always wonder, what if I did? What if I were today sitting here thinking, I wonder if that one, that one guy that caught my eye, I wonder if I would have said hi, you know, so I think you just, even those missed opportunities could make, it's like a sliding doors moment. So don't let your doors slide close without taking that chance. And there have been many people in my life that I've gone up and said hi or introduced myself, you know, where maybe it didn't go the way I planned. But I mean, remember, I couldn't even give you one situation. I mean, it's definitely happened to me. But I couldn't even name one time that I'm still thinking about where I could say, oh, yeah, that was bad.

I only can think of all the amazing connections that I have. Now, a lot of us as parents have come to learn that these skills are important. How do we, in this age of influencers, many of whom are very me oriented? And that's what our kids are growing up with on all the social media platforms, they're seeing a lot of me oriented people. How do we get kids and teenagers excited about learning some of these skills? It's finding out that that spot, again, that same need that they have that we were just talking about. And so if it's, you know, they want to make new friends, they want to do better in school, they're looking for a job, you know, a teenager is looking for a job, like whatever it might be, finding the area that has that gap that we were doing earlier and try to fill it with etiquette.

And the way you can do that, for example, you have a teenager, maybe they're wanting to date, maybe they're wanting to make new friends or not doing so well in school, not, you know, whatever it might be and saying, you might not want to hear it from me because often parents send them to me. First, you can send me, but I think that, you know, saying by walking up and introducing yourself or by dressing, like let's talk about, you know, you're telling people how to treat you, by the way, you present yourself. So let's talk about you want to work on maybe grooming or hygiene or dressing, you know, you can say it's about respect, it's about showing respect to yourself, but to the other person.

So let's like, let's find a way that you feel comfortable and confident, you know, it could be there's so many different aspects and situations that are relevant to a teenager's life. I think, you know, making sure that they understand that in the core of it, being of respect, that it's relevant in every single situation. If you find that gap that it can help still, I think that's where I would go with it. And I think even saying, okay, I will, I want to take you to a really nice dinner to celebrate X Y and Z. I want to make sure you feel confident when you get there and you know it's for a connect to pick up.

That's the only purpose here is to make sure you feel great, because guess what? In three years when you go interview for that job, it might be over lunch or it might be with your boss or you might be with clients and I want you feel super confident. So just explaining the why and the reasons I think is important, not just saying you should dress like this, you should brush your hair, you should because that turns lecture and then they're not seeing the reason behind it. So I think that's really important to explain and then always go back to that gap and how it could steal that gap and their lives.

And that's what we try to do as trainers. When parents and grandparents and their families to us is we try to find that gap and then we try to fill it in with confidence or etiquette. So instead of just teaching etiquette for etiquette's sake, connecting it to those kids specific goals or wants or needs. And then suddenly it has relevance because oh, I do want to get a job this summer or I do want to do well in this interview, whatever it might be or I want to have a nice time at dinner by connecting it to their goals, they're going to be more receptive to what it is you hope they'll learn. Correct, and for example, we had a client recently and her daughter, she was on social media and she wasn't feeling she was making friends and she, you know, to her is a big deal that she didn't have friends on social media and that was hard for her.

And so we said, okay, so let's go on, let's look at your profile, let's now, you know, and it wasn't about portraying herself in a different white or any of her posts, it was actually about the interaction she was having with people. And you know, I was like, okay, so you've scrolled through here and I don't see any heart, I don't see you like to see any comments, let's go through and let's heart a bunch of posts. Now let's give some love to people. I'll say you look amazing. Wow, that's so fantastic. Congratulations. Let's like give some, let's give some positives here. And, you know, just teaching her about social interaction connecting with other people and and and the mom actually, it was kind of like a longer finishing program, like a four day.

And so I came in on that one part and the mom reported back and said, she is so thrilled that she is, she killed weeks, they kill it with kindness, kill them with kindness. She, you know, somebody who has never spoken here before is now friending her and speaking to her at school and thinks she's like the greatest things in slight spread because she was able to connect with her. So, you know, for her, that was her challenge. And that was, it was just about making friends, which now often a lot of teachers do online. And it was just about teaching little things like that. So it's, it's whatever the relevance is to them, even if it seems very insignificant to you, it could be the most important part of their lives right then.

And so just not to take away from that. Let's talk about when etiquette goes bad. When my daughter was younger, she was enrolled in a local etiquette course that was very different from yours. We didn't know this going in, but this was much more old school etiquette that was being taught. And if only we lived in Manhattan, I would have sent her to a Beaumont etiquette for sure. Yes, please. And at this time, the online courses were not available through Beaumont. So she's in this course. She's young, I think, nine or 10 years old. And they had a mock dance situation. And there was a boy that asked her to dance.

And she didn't want to dance with this particular young gentleman. And she was polite about it. And she said, I'm not available at this time. And the teacher reprimanded her in front of everyone. She stopped the situation and made a point to say, you don't want to say no to a boy in a situation like this, because you're going to let him down. And my wife happened to be there during this class and heard this message. And she's a very capable smart woman and very quickly caught on that it is probably not the best idea to be sending young girls the message that gosh, yeah, they shouldn't say no to a boy if there's something that they don't want to do.

And I wanted to get your take on how you would handle that situation in that moment. Yeah. So in that moment, I think I would have actually gone to talk with the boy in the situation. I wouldn't have corrected your daughter because she wasn't rude. I would have said to the boy, okay, so that's okay. You know, it's up to her if she wants to dance or not. And you know, and I would have kind of talked to him about getting his confidence back up to ask the next person instead of telling her she was wrong because she wasn't wrong. And she handled it. She was very polite. She, you know, she just didn't want to dance then.

And to say, you know, to put out that messaging, you know, especially at such an impressionable age and incorrect in my mind, very incorrect messaging. And even sometimes, you know, to be seen as dangerous messaging, I think is it's a big responsibility as a trainer and as an adult authority teaching that. So I would have corrected or I would have worked with the boy instead of your daughter in that situation. Now, what if you were the parent in this situation? How would you have approached them? Yeah, you're just watching this play out. And what would be the best way to handle it from that point of view?

I personally would have pulled pulled her aside. You know, after once she goes to thought, I know, it has said, you know, my daughter's even Valentina and she's seven. I was said Valentina. Not yet. I think my mommy thinks you handled that really well. I think you were very kind in your response to him. You never have to say yes to somebody. And if you weren't comfortable, you didn't want to dance with him. You don't have to. But I think it was a really nice way that you gave compassion in your response to him and you weren't rude to him, which is the important. So I'm commending for being kind.

And you never have to say yes to anyone if you don't feel comfortable, if you don't want to. So mommy is telling you, like I would give her that reassurance that she handled in the right way. And then I would take the teacher aside after privately, because I don't think I would want I wouldn't want to embarrass, you know, it's her course. And I wouldn't want to embarrass her or take away something from her in that moment. But I would have taken her aside and told her what I thought and why I thought the messaging was incorrect and asked her to correct it in front of the class, you know, so that all those girls and boys and leave with some impressionable, incorrect messaging.

But I would have asked the teacher to do it instead of, you know, verbalizing it or embarrassing her. But I think it would have been correct for the teacher to correct herself and further explain in front of everybody. So take away wasn't a dangerous one really. Well, I'm glad to hear that because that is what my wife did. Did it privately, not in front of everyone just waited till the crowd had dispersed and spoke to the teacher. She was not super open to my wife's thoughts on the matter. She said, I didn't tell them that in a dating situation, they're not allowed to say no. And my wife said, well, yes, but they're 10 years old.

We're not always sure how they're interpreting different messages and consent is obviously a very important message to communicate to boys and girls for whatever situation they might be in. And so they agreed to disagree on that. And it actually worked out really well, because what we ended up doing was not finishing the class, bought your book, and worked through some of this stuff at home. And I think it all worked out for the best in the end. But I was just curious to get your thoughts on that complicated situation. I think it could just be a few words to one person, but it could mean everything, literally everything to the other person.

And you're right, it's not just about girls, it's consent for all genders. And I think that's a really important thing to take home. I mean etiquette trainers all the time that are teaching messaging that I personally don't agree with. And you know, that's their thing. Maybe they have a certain audience for that. And it's not that audience. I remember I had a conversation with a Southern etiquette trainer. And she said, you know, ladies must stay seated at the table. And only the man would stand if somebody came to the table. And I said, well, how do you figure if we're at a business meeting, you're saying, if the client walks in, the woman stays seated because she's a woman.

And I wasn't, I really truly was just trying to understand what she was training. And we were there to train a company had brought us in to train different elements together. So we were going over our notes, what we're going to do. And I at that point, and I said, I have to say, I disagree. I think, you know, back in 1920, that might have been a thing. But I think now gender is not what we're teaching in terms of who should stand here. So, you know, I'm not afraid to speak up. You can debate things respectfully and try to, you know, but sometimes people just are stuck in and certain thoughts. And then that's why my books are all modern and my approach, because that's what I believe.

But I mean, I meet people like that all the time. So. Well, I am grateful that you are bringing a fresh take to this subject and updating it for for people all over the place. Along those lines, I was wondering if you could teach me a little podcast etiquette, things you would recommend when you're a guest on a podcast, because I think that might be a more common situation rather than hosting one. What are some tips if you find yourself on a podcast? So I think the biggest thing, if you are guests on a podcast, is to make sure you read all the instructions ahead of time. So log in early, make sure, for example, if there's camera specifications or mic specifications, you follow them know how to log on to the platform, you've never heard of it.

I think I have a lock on my door right now because I've got a two-year-old. So make sure all of those things are done ahead. I think dress nicely, make sure the background is appropriate. True story, my husband used my office recently and I have these bookshelves that I do a lot of my trainings in front of virtually. And I, it was a weekend. And I remember sitting on Monday morning for my training and I put my camera on right before that I turned around and there was a German beer bottle sitting on with a glass next to it on my bookshelf and I was like, you know, and I didn't even know he was in my office.

But I was like, whoa. So you know, so little things like that. I think no eating on a podcast, drinking is fine, no eating. I think that chewing gum. I think if it's being filmed, make sure you're, like I said, dressed, I think appropriately that you're not pants down. Or like, you know, sometimes people just put something on the top and forget the second half, but in the middle, say the computer dies, needs to be changed, you have to stand up. What happens? You see it all this time, you see these viral TikToks of people running around with their trousers down and you're like, oh, then make sure that, you know, you're grateful for the opportunity.

I think that's really important too. You're giving a plot, you're being given a platform, right? And so I think that's him. And then one to add, if you happen to be in a studio with mics like these, a lot of people want to do this to be close to the mic. And it's, I almost can see your Instagram post where it's like, it should be over here 45 degrees. Yeah. So it's not blocking your face and you'll actually get better sound that way as well. Okay, good. I love that. So what about mine? Mine is on a desk. So if I don't have a stand like that, then this is fine. Yeah. And you're in good shape. I think, and the external mic, when you're doing one over distance like this, where I'm in California and you're in New York, just having an external mic, it's good for the show and then good for the guest because it's going to make the audio a lot stronger.

And I really, I have to tell you, because you practice what you preach. I really appreciate the fact that you did get that microphone so that the audio will be better because there have been instances in the past where people say they're going to do that and then they don't follow through on it. And I will even offer, I'll say, I will send you a microphone from Amazon. It's on me. I just wanted to sound and look great for both of us. But sometimes it sort of slips through the cracks. Oh my goodness. A pleasure. I thought I thought the same when I read the email that said it was a link to a professional microphone.

And then it said that you were offering to send that to me. And I thought, wow, that is so generous. And but I wanted to do that myself for you. But I was thinking, I was like, wow, that's really nice. I've never been, I've been on a lot of podcasts. I've never been offered that. So thank you very much. And now I will have this very nice professional microphone for future endeavors. There you go. I actually picked that one up from Tim Ferriss. He said that he extends that invitation to all of his guests when they're doing a distance interview. That's so wonderful gesture to make to send the message.

I am taking this seriously. I want this to be good for both of us. I mean, to me, it really speaks to good etiquette. Let's talk about how you started your business because for those who don't know, Beaumont etiquette started with just you. It's grown into a huge successful enterprise. And I know people are interested in how to someone make that happen, especially when this wasn't like buying a franchise or jumping into an industry that was already huge. I mean, you really dreamt it and then made it happen. And I would love to hear that story. Yes. So thank you for that. I think, you know, I always say that it's something that I talk about a lot and just rent keynotes.

And you probably remember, it's called my Plan B mentality. If you have a Plan B, you fall back on it. So don't have a Plan B for us. You will. So I still, that's my kind of go to mentality all the time. It's going to happen. It's going to work. And yes, I started out as janitor and CEO of the want etiquette over 10 years ago. And it was hard. It was really hard. But for me, it was about changing tack. And I talked about this a lot too. And I'm a sailor, my family of sailors and changing tack simply means when you're going into the, when you're sailing and you lose wind and suddenly the boat stops, then you got to change the direction of the sails to pick up the wind to go again.

I still today, I feel all the time, I have things go wrong all the time with campaigns or projects or ideas that I that I have or that I'm implementing. And they don't work. And I give them a fair amount of time. And if it doesn't work, then I literally, I have a change tack meeting. I put in my calendar is change tack. And then the topic. And then from that day forward, I write down, you know, 10 things I'm going to do to change and how I'm going to implement them. And I really write a little business plan for myself on that tactic. So how I did it is I started off thinking, how can I do something that is not here yet?

For me, it was, you know, etiquette is longstanding tradition taught in America by many companies. But I wanted to be modern. And I wanted to teach it in a way and train in a way that was very different. So I started teaching kind of courses that aligned with pop culture. So I wanted to, I basically found a niche, but I wanted to make it different than what was already out there. So we have an idea, it could already be done, but how can you do it different? And what's your offering? I think in many respects, this, this works. And then it was hard work getting the message out there. I gave so many free courses away to just get the word out there.

I remember standing outside of a college in New York with flyers handing out free etiquette courses. I was offering my time free. I didn't get one single booking. And I probably handed out 200 flyers that day. And so I was like, oh, great. So I lost money today because I paid for 200 flyers and all my time to have great. But you can't let it get you down. You guys say, okay, what I learned from here? How am I going to try this now? And so then I threw a dinner party and said everybody, I invited five friends and said, everybody bring one friend I'd never met. And that was the next time. And then I got my experience teaching and training that way.

And then I started doing that. You know, it's it's it's just always changing time and creating new new courses all the time, creating my own content, not copying content. I think is a big, big thing, not copying someone else's ideas, not copying someone's layout. I mean, things like that and make sure it's yours and unique to you and and niche. And you will do it. You will break. You will find your people. You just have to keep going. But that's that's kind of how I started Beaumont. And now we're actually looking still working on it, but possible franchise models for next year for people who want to open up their own etiquette company and just don't know where to start.

I actually already teach a train the trainer division. So we do online train the trainer. So anybody who kind of thinks they love etiquette, not sure about it, maybe you want to start their own company, you can enroll every six months into our train the training program where we teach you how to become an etiquette train. But I might be taking that one step further very soon. So stay tuned. Okay, what if I feel fake or that I'm faking it when I practice good etiquette where I feel more comfortable slouching and this is where I feel more natural. And you're saying, you know, have good posture and lean in a little bit.

But suddenly I feel like I'm posing a little bit. What advice do you have for that situation? One of the quotes my book is don't fake it till you make it practice it until you become it. So practice it and you can have a different variation or different version. Maybe standing sitting straight up doesn't feel natural to you and never will. But maybe it's, you know, sitting straight up with a gentle lean that feels a little bit more natural to you. But you're still showing posture. So put your own spin on things. I think it doesn't feel right. Don't do it. I think if you start saying, you know, for example, one of the things I teach my online finishing program is voice and articulation and changing your voice, not changing your accent or anything, but actually sophisticated verbiage is what we call it and learning to train your voice to sound a certain way.

And let's say you take this course, let's say you start changing your voice, you feel great about it. And then you see someone that you haven't seen for 10 years, five years. And they say, what? That's not your voice. What? This is, wait, why you sound you look strange or dressed different? What's going on here? They're trying to take something you've made positive changes in yourself. And they're trying to take it and they're uncomfortable with it. You're not uncomfortable with it. They are. And so just remembering that and don't let people give you negatives. You're all now positive. You feel good.

You look good, whatever it is, change wise, you've made. So don't let people's own security is reflect on you. Instead, this happened to me. And instead, when I went back to Sarasota, Florida, as an, you know, 30 year old adult, and I bumped into somebody that I hadn't seen. So it's 15 or 16. And she said that to me in a really negative way. It was like, you know, part of you wants to hide under a rock. But you know, what I said instead, which is what I advise people, I say, embrace it. So instead, you could say, thank you so much for noticing that's that makes me feel so good. I have been working really hard on my, you know, I had to voice training courses because I was, I felt like I was, you know, mumbling all the time.

So it's really helped in my career. And I'm just seeing lots of different doors opening from the changes I made. So thank you so much for noticing it's been a journey, you know, and then move on to something else and let them come back with a negative to that. How does anybody have a negative to that? You know, so if you don't feel it, yeah, you just need to practice it, holding silverware this is a certain way or networking a certain way or dressing a certain way doesn't feel right to you yet. Adjust, change tack, and then practice. And it soon will feel like you and you people change. I would be really embarrassed if I hadn't changed since I was 15 when I saw that person, I was 30.

I would, I would thought, whoa, have I never evolved here? That's strange. That's more strange to me than evolving and changing. So remember that too. So just embrace it. I really like that little bit of social jiu-jitsu there because usually when someone comments on how you've changed, even if you have changed in a positive way, it's usually a veiled negative comment. And I really like that idea of just turning it around and, oh, thank you for noticing and turning that into a positive situation. Because just like you said, how are they going to come back with more negativity after that? You're just reframing the entire situation in a much better way for both parties.

Exactly. And I do it. I teach people to that all the time, all the time, and business, social, teens, teenagers who are changing all the time, and you come back from the summer and all of a sudden you look different, you're dressing different, and people try to bully you. And that's that being insecure because you came back looking and feeling fabulous and more confident in all these changes. And people who are like, whoa, fear, fear, fear, I don't know, change it. I like change. They're going to come after you. But that's them being insecure. So it's way more about them than it does you, right?

So it's embracing and then finding your people and sticking with that. And yeah, I really am a big believer of that. Yeah. And I think it even applies to more than just the personal. I mean, I don't know if this happened to you, but I hear this from a number of people when they are starting a new project, they want to launch a new business. They're attempting to make a big change in their lives. And sometimes people in their circle have just have a reaction because this is new to them. This is a change to them. And it comes across as a little bit of resistance to the person who's trying to go do something new.

And you know, as well as anyone, starting a new business, bringing a new project into the world, it's hard. It requires so much energy and attention. It's easy to get down when there's a little bit of resistance and people knocking what you're trying to do a little bit. That's a really helpful tip for people in a lot of different situations. Yeah, I also dating anybody other dating and think, you know, there's so many parts of your life that you can apply that to. And if things aren't working, you're getting the same old dates, the same, you know, uninteresting people you're not compatible with.

It's time to mix things up. It's you know, like, so I think etiquette and chain and there's so many different aspects of your life that you can apply that to. Is it good etiquette to maintain the proper right behaviors in a social situation or to match the environment that you're in? Which one should take precedence? I would say always matching the environment you're in. It's way more important. So for example, if you know that it's the correct etiquette to hold a knife and fork in a certain way, and then you go to someone's home and you're sitting around the table and everyone in the family is eating something with their hands.

And you're the only one that picks up the fork and the knife and starts cutting it cutting away. I think it draws the wrong kind of attention. You were trying to show respect by using good dining etiquette. But if you look around, now I've run a little uncomfortable because you've you put yourself in a different kind of space than everyone else. I always say practice the etiquette and of the customs and culture of the place, the country, the family you're with and place you're in. And even when you go out to a restaurant and let's say I call it embassy etiquette. So when you go let's say we go to a Japanese restaurant tonight and even if we're in New York City or Los Angeles, we wouldn't practice American etiquette because the moment we walked into that Japanese restaurant, we would follow the etiquette and the customs and the culture of the Japanese restaurant.

So they'd give me chopsticks. I should not then ask for fork and a knife. I should eat what was provided to me. I'm asked in a certain culture to sit on the floor. I shouldn't ask for a chair. So I think it's those are really important parts to kind of show and respect. And also when you travel, think about that, you know, coming into a new culture, a new country. And if you just, you know, if you're American and then you go to any new country and you act in all the same protocols that would be seen as okay back home, you probably are going to raise an eyebrow and not in the right way. So you want to come cross respectful.

So you take on the etiquette of the country or culture you're in. So that means that people's homes as well. What are some general specifics that we can all learn if we are traveling somewhere else because we might not be able to quickly memorize the differences in, let's say, every different country in Europe. But what are some some through lines that would help us when we travel, let's say, let's say to Europe, let's use that as an example. Things that would be different. If I'm traveling there as an American, what are some things that should be mindful of? If it's a different foreign language, make sure you know a couple greetings.

The basics. Hello, thank you. Goodbye. Please, I think in every language, I think, know the tipping culture. It might be considered important to if you don't tip in America, you know, a server will come running after you at a table. But in some cultures, it's not normal to tip, you know, a server, or it's already included in the bill. It's even offensive to tip in some cultures because you're implying they're not doing their job well enough. I think it's important to understand, I mean, lightness is one of the easiest examples of etiquette in any situation because it's seen as a lack of respect for the other person's time.

So that's universal in terms that goes across every culture. I think finding out the dress code is hugely important. Some cultures, as a woman, I cannot have my shoulders or my head uncovered and I went to a wedding. I went to a wedding in India, actually. And when I walked in, you know, I was told I had a time, I also did my research, but I knew that when I went to the temple, my shoulders hadn't be covered. I had to have something over my head. And this was to respect the couple, the culture, the religion, the temple, everything. That was so sacred to them on that day. So I think it's really important to do your research.

That's the big part. And if you don't, if you're not sure, don't believe all the TikToks you see. Do your proper go to the tourism board, go to the actual, you know, their tourism boards that offer etiquette and protocols of that country or culture. So start there and don't just believe what you see on YouTube because there is a lot of great information out there on YouTube, but there's a lot of incorrect in region two. So I would start with a more authoritative source or an expert in that culture before you travel. Yeah, we all need to be a little skeptical of things we learn and see on TikTok and Instagram.

You never know. Not on the Mike Amaya channel. It's all good. Good etiquette there. That's right. So what is next for Micah? I mean, you've written books, you've run these classes, now you're training the trainers. Sounds like there may be franchises coming. What else is next for you? Well, we are getting ready. We'll be doing a tour this this year. We're still confirming last details on a couple of the cities, but we're doing a tour across America. So coming to cities and group training sessions. So if you've never taken etiquette cars before, you know, you wanted to try it. It's not scary. It's super fun and interactive.

So we'll be touring across the country. And some new cities I've actually never even been to, which I'm really excited about. And actually in the process of pitching a new book. And so we'll see. We'll see what comes next. But those are my two things right now that I'm working on. And I'm excited for opportunities. I think one door close is another opens is always my kind of thought process. And, you know, I love television. I love, you know, so opportunities. Let's see. I'm putting them all out there. I'm sending away all the positivity and I'm hoping it is circles back soon. But that's, let's see.

I'm hoping some exciting things to announce in. Okay. Excellent. Are you coming through LA on this tour or Orange County? I will be in California is what I will say. And yeah. And if I am near, well, regardless, I will let you know. But we are trying to confirm a location right now for California. So I don't want to say anything until it's done. But I think we will be close to you. In which case you'll have to be my guest of honor and come join me. Oh, lovely. I'm going to enroll the whole family. Thank you. Well, you could be my guest and bring your family in on me. But it'll be it'll be super fun.

And then Micah, if anyone wants to learn more about this, they want to explore etiquette further. Where can they find more information about you and learn more about what you're offering? I have a lot of, you know, free resources as well. So I have a YouTube, just Mike Amaya, M Y K A M E I R YouTube with lots of little lessons. I've got a website called mikeamaya.com, which are it's daily etiquette articles on how to address an envelope correctly. To should you tell someone there's Spanish in their teeth to how to introduce someone correctly. So those are all free resources on my website, bonemontedicate.com is where we have online learning.

So you can take our cat courses start from $39. All different topics from wine etiquette to teen and kids to, you know, an awful online finishing program. I have two books, modern etiquette, made easy and business etiquette, made easy, which you so kindly have read and quoted so much from. So thank you. And of course, you can have us come to you. You can come visit us in our office in New York City, or we can fly out to you. So I have an entire team that, you know, for every need, every gender trainer. And so we come to speak at companies all over the world. We do one to one training. We go, you know, we're everywhere.

So we would love, we'd be honored to be able to train you and your family or your company. And yeah, so that's that's us. And everybody is so wonderful. My team is a their incredible people, really good humans. I've hand chosen every single person. And they're just they're the force that keeps me going every day. They're wonderful people. So we'd be honored to help train you if you ever need it. Yes, one to reinforce your books, because I won't endorse anything on this show that I don't really feel passionate about. But I mean, your books are just chock full of specific actionable tips that will have a positive impact on anybody's life who reads them.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And my next book that I'm working on is actually for children for little ones. So it's a different direction. But I'm excited because I think it starts based. It's you can start young. I think it's really important people think that you have to be, you know, not eight, nine, 10 before you can really understand concepts. But I think it starts so much younger. So I'm I'm in the process now, but it's it's a fun it's a fun process. But I'm just in the pitch phase. So hopefully, let's see, maybe next year, two and twenty twenty twenty five. Let's see.

Stay tuned. Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions. Don't accept the status quo and be curious.