The Sex Recession Is Real. AI Is About to Make It Worse.

Are we in a sex recession? Every other generation usually is going up. This was the first time that we saw a decline. I fear that a decent percentage of younger populations could end up thinking that regular humans aren't worth it, that they're just not worth it. You're afraid of upsetting the other person or feeling too vulnerable or rocking the boat when things are good enough or you don't have the band with or the skills. So you just keep brushing it under the rug and brushing it under the rug. And then you've got a massive lump in the middle of your living room at some point. She's been studying this for 33 years.

She's never seen it move like this. Our brains can't keep up with that. Our laws can't keep up with it. Our cultural shifts can't keep up with it. Parenting can't keep up with it. People don't regret that they didn't work harder or make more money. They regret that they didn't have the courage to be more vulnerable and more authentic with their closest relationships. What it breaks down to is one question, like what are you avoiding talking about and why? Dr. Jen, welcome to the show today. I want to ask you what's happening to intimacy today. Me personally today. All over the map as a 53 year old Perry Metal puzzle woman that in of itself could be multiple episodes.

But I mean, I think today, well, so I've been as a sociologist, I've been studying and watching the trends around sexuality, sexual expression, gender roles, et cetera, for over 30 years. And one thing that particularly stands out to me now is how the potential for AI to change it so fast. And we've seen shifts, obviously because of technology and dating and pornography. And now in social media, certainly, but now with the speed of changes in AI and our brains can't keep up with that, our laws can't keep up with it, our cultural shifts can't keep up with it, parenting can't keep up with it. And we're in this really unknown space so that we don't know where we're headed and we don't know what's gonna happen.

And for me as an expert in intimacy and relationships where I see it most showing up and most problematic is that I was already seeing younger generations who are digital natives having less communication skills or less ability to make eye contact, tapping out of sex and relationships overall. All right, we've seen a drop in that with Gen Z. And overall having, I believe less capacity to be vulnerable, like there may be more, and sometimes there's more sort of adventurous sex happening, but when I work with folks like that in younger generations, they're like, oh, I don't actually vulnerably share what I want.

So, because that feels too raw. So I'm seeing a loss in vulnerability and ability to communicate resilience, ability and willingness to be uncomfortable, which is at the core of being able to have intimacy with others and whether it's mental, physical, emotional, sexual intimacy with others, that's at the core. So I'm seeing this changing quickly because of social media and now AI, and then using AI as therapists and chatbots, et cetera, which isn't all terrible. I just really want intentionality around it. Sure. Well, there's a lot to unpack right there. Yeah. Let's first, I just want to get clear on how are we gonna define intimacy before we jump into all of that?

Because I think a lot of people think of sex when they hear intimacy, but it's, it is that it's more than that. I'm gonna let you run with that one. So a couple of things. One, when I use the term intimacy, I mean big picture intimacy, and by that, I mean all of those different components. Physical intimacy and sexual intimacy, as well as emotional intimacy and even mental intimacy. When you feel like you're in sync with somebody or you're being really curious about somebody or vice versa. All of those components are the big picture to me of what feels really most fulfilling in terms of connecting deeply with other humans.

Feeling very seen, feeling very known and vice versa. But at the core of all of that is a willingness to let our armor down, take our armor down, that we all have armors of protection. Cause we've been hurt or we've been embarrassed or we felt ashamed or we have parents that never modeled safe emotional expression for us a whole bunch of things. But we tend to learn by the time we get to adults that it's scary to be vulnerable in all sorts of ways. And to me, that is at the core of real intimacy and the depth of intimacy. Like the research around longevity and happiness at the end of people's lives were regrets at the end of lives that research seems to be pointing to over and over again.

People don't regret that they didn't work harder or make more money. They regret that they didn't have the courage to be more vulnerable and more authentic with their closest relationships and really invest in the depth and warmth of their closest relationships. And those connective times continually are showing up as what makes us happiest and healthiest in our relationships and gives us greater longevity. So that all of that is intimacy. Yeah. If that helps. Yeah, it's a big. Topic. But it's vulnerability to me. Right. Right. Yeah. So I'm risk taking. So I'm gonna key in on there on the, when you were discussing what's happening to intimacy today is you said, especially young people are having trouble communicating.

And it might be my personal preference, but I feel like communication is the key to vulnerability. It's the key. I know it is the key to my marriage being strong and healthy and feeling good about it. And let's unpack that a little bit how AI is affecting that, how social media is affecting that. Yeah. So a couple of things. I'll go off in some directions and then bring me back to the question. I mean, first of all, in some ways younger generations communicate better and that there is a greater self-awareness, awareness around patterns. Sometimes when I get folks in their, in their 20s coming into my coaching practice, I was like, my God, like men and women, I'm like, your self-awareness is amazing.

They have a lot of therapy language, which sometimes is great, which sometimes though otherwise is kind of problematic. But there is creative communication. There's just, I would say it's the vulnerability piece. And so getting to your bigger question of like about communication and relationships. I mean, right? That's the cliche answer. Like, oh, we're having problems. What do we need? Communication, we need to communicate. I was like, well, how are you communicating? And how are you listening? Truly those two pieces. And so are you, I launched this thing last summer called the Center for Courageous Intimacy as an online hub for people to learn and to do some community events around it.

But at the core, I realized whether I've, and I've worked so many years in this realm, I've worked with Girl Scouts to like senior citizens and college students and CEOs and everything in between. What it breaks down to is one question, like what are you avoiding talking about and why? You know, fundamentally, like what are the missing conversations in your relationships and what's getting in the way of those? And often it's a combination of courage and skills. Like, so it's the courage to do the hard, uncomfortable thing that might upset your partner or it feels so vulnerable, you're gonna be raw and open, like you could be attacked or brought down.

But also the skills and how to do it and how to make sure what you're saying is what you mean. How to be a mindful listener when your partner responds or something I like to call generous listening, which is listening, you know, truly to understand and with an open heart and kindness around it and curiosity around it. So those pieces to me. And then, you know, when I work with couples who've got little kids and busy lives and travel and health and all sorts of stuff, you know, communication is often just around the logistics of how the hell to stay on top of everything. And then maybe kids become teenagers or something like that and often the parents and the couple has lost skills in how to actually talk about what matters to them or what else can you talk about?

What do we have in common now? So to me, it's one of the suggestions I make is just have regular check-ins. Where you're talking about both logistics and whatever, but you're also talking about what matters most to you and you're creating that adult space for each other. I mean, and there's so much cliche around like date nights and all that shit really matters. Carving out time just for you that is not about logistical conversations, but what matters to you that's happening sociopolitically or with your aging parents or a friend of yours or something interesting you read in the Atlantic that you wanted to talk about all sorts of things, but making sure you're carving out time and space for it.

And then when you're there, the phones are away and you're very present with each other because that is then to your current day question, how phones interrupt with couples being present with each other, I think is one of the biggest relationship problems today because we're not, you know, we used to have so much more organic time for just reacting and interacting with each other. Even if a TV's on and you're watching it, still we tend to not be as engrossed as we are on our phones. Yeah. And so what we're missing is this space of being together where you're just like, oh, hey, look out the window, I saw this thing or oh, I had a tough day today.

Or you know, you just go by and rub their shoulders a little bit. All of these spaces for connections with the Gottman's and the research called bids for connection. We are having less and less space for those for putting them out and then we're not noticing them in each other, we're not picking them up. And so those are, I mean, they're little ways of communicating and connecting that when couples have less and less of them, it's easier to build resentments and distance over time. Sure. I mean, it is really challenging when, whether it's with your partner or somebody else, right, when maybe they ask you a question, but then there's a ding and they're doing this, right?

And you feel completely disconnected from that person, suddenly. And it is a symptom of modern society. I saw a comedian the other day who was talking about how mindfulness is a thing these days. And he said, you know, I grew up in the 90s and had to ride the subway. And he said, I did nothing but being mindful. I would just, there was nothing else to do. So we would look around at what was in front of me. And I thought he really hit on a important point there that it is these distraction devices. I mean, it's like a slot machine in your pocket or the time. Yeah. And it's not just random distractions.

I mean, this morning I was trying to, well, not, I was trying to, my wife and I were trying to have a conversation and, but it is 10 a.m. And so we're both at home, but there's work stuff coming in for both of us at the same time. And you can't ignore that. And it's just challenges we need to be aware of and think through and deal with. Let's talk about the date nights because I find that one works extraordinarily well. And there's always something for each person in a relationship. But I know for my wife, like it just, that's really important to her that like take her. Take her out to dinner. Well, it's just, it's just in a quiet place.

It's intimate. It feels like it's just us wherever that is. It's not, it's not like we're going to a club with loud music. Right. And, and I know that that's the way to connect and then broach difficult conversations. It's just, you know, yeah, take away the distractions or at least the, the persistent distractions. And why is that so important for couples to do that? I mean, I think it's always been important to build a carve out space just for the two of you as a reminder of like, right, we, we deserve time just for us. And we're being intentional about that time. Because at some point, right, the kids will be out of the house and you still want to know and like each other.

Yeah. So, but particularly now in today's world, just in parents pulled in so many directions and driving kids everywhere. There's just, there's endless other priorities. And date nights are a way of saying we matter too. And we matter so much that we're getting a babysitter and we're carving out this time and we're spending extra money and maybe we're trying a new restaurant and we are putting our phones away and we're not doing planning or just, unless it's like a fun vacation coming up or something, we are not doing that. We matter to each other. So to me, it's, I mean, what's the biggest, one of the biggest commodities in today's world is attention.

All right, that's what all social media, everything is, trying to get our attention and paying all of this money to get our attention and keep our attention. So we need to be intentional about what we're doing with our attention. Date nights are a perfect example of really being intentional about that and slowing down and saying no, we matter. And we both know that and we're going to spend this time doing this. Yeah, I think it can well, let's start with this. James Sexton, who is a divorce attorney, but he's a become a prominent influencer on all the lessons he's learned with working through so many divorces on how to not get divorced.

And I liked this idea that he had where he said, in any partnership, you've got two people and one person wants something and they feel like they're not getting it and another person probably wants something different and they feel like they're not getting it. And so if it's a really, the example he was using that got some attention on social media as it would is, he said, so you've got this woman that really wants to be given flowers more often and surprised by it. And you got this man who wants to be given more nudes. He wants to be sent some nudes on his phone. Whatever your thing is, insert your favorite one there.

But the woman in the relationship doesn't want to send any nudes because he's not paying attention to her and never brings any flowers to the house. And he's not bringing any flowers to the house because she's not hearing him and doesn't ever send any nudes. And he said, at any moment, either one of these people could break that cycle and do the thing the other person wants, which will encourage the opposite person to do what you're looking for and then it becomes a virtuous cycle instead of a negative one. And the date nights kind of like a shortcut to get down to that. And I think, and then maybe even during those conversations, it can kind of be like, hey, let's start here.

I'm gonna shortcut the process. I'm gonna give you that thing you're looking for. It might be a massage or a nice note or whatever that thing is. Yeah, I have four different directions. I wanna go. That's what I'm trying to jot them down so I don't forget. But I probably will. So first of all, I would say with the date nights, there needs to be, one thing, you don't want date nights to then be like, oh, this is the only place we talk about hard things. I don't wanna keep going on date nights anymore because they suck and they're uncomfortable and we argue and fight. So I would be careful of that.

And then maybe just let date nights be really a celebration connection time. But let, if you can, on a Sunday morning, if you can carve out some time or something, over coffee, you know, if you can get a little space away from the kids depending on their ages, then talk about other things. And I'm not saying never do it on a date night. So, but I would be mindful of that. I have to be, I would say be intentional with how you're bringing up these topics. And there's great like decks of cards that can help this or list of, I'm always like creating lists of questions for people to have more meaningful conversations with each other.

And they're phrased in very important ways that they're less likely to make each other feel defensive. And that's one of the most important things. Like how are you presenting the information? So I do that piece of them missing each other is, and it's one of the reasons I like the five love languages, even though it is not based in science, you know, it's a pop psychology thing. I think that concept that we can love past each other because you have different ways that you like to give and receive love and you're missing each other. And then you keep wanting the other person to step up so that you can do the nice things, right?

And then you end up in that downward spiral instead of like that virtuous cycle, like you said. So I do like encouraging folks like every morning wake up and be like, what's one thing I can do for my partner today that is meaningful and loving and nurturing to him or her, even if it doesn't mean anything to me so that I can start that upward spiral of positivity and breaking it that way. I could see that piece about the flowers and the nudes. I mean, I feel like, I don't know if he was trying to be reductive on purpose to piss people off. I'm a feeling he was, he's kind of a provocative character.

I would guess, the name's vaguely familiar, but from how you presented that, I can tell that. I mean, it gets people talking about the concept, which is nice, but I feel like it could get people also just being dismissive because it feels so reductive. However, the concept overall that, I mean, and often for women, it's not the flowers, it's wanting to feel that they're being thought about and considered and that they're known, right? That there has been male partners that they know them, they see them, they know them, and that they wanna nurture them. Sometimes that's through gifts. Often it is more around quality time and listening and having meaningful emotional conversations about what's going on for each of you.

The nudes, that's probably more directly on the nose of just wanting more desire and passion and fun and excitement and sex and greater frequency of sex for men. Although, I've seen it go both ways before in my practice over the years, but anyway, those are my thoughts. Yeah. Well, let's switch gears. Lehigh, is that where you went? Lehigh University in Pennsylvania for undergrad, yeah. Grad school was university in Albany in upstate New York. Okay, and did I see, I've got my notes here, it's in here somewhere, but were you a peer counselor for sex related issues? Is this? This is how I started.

Yeah, I mean, how do you find your way to that? Which leads you to where you are now, yeah. Yeah, when I was 20, my roommate had become a sexual health peer educator at the Lehigh campus where you go around to the dorms and you do condom demonstrations and safer sex talks, the RAs bring you in, and she was having such a fun time in the group. And I was like, I actually joined, I mean, it sounded fun, but I primarily joined because I wanted public speaking skills, which I was like, you know, was really scared doing oral presentations at the end of semester in my classes. And I was like, oh, they teach you how to stand up in front of people to talk about sex.

And I was like, if you could talk about sex, you could probably talk about anything. And then I just, you know, 33 years later, never stopped talking about sex and intimacy and relationships. So I joined that group and it was so interesting to me. And one of the things that stood out the most, and I was studying sociology, social psychology, anthropology at the time, as an undergrad, I went on to get my PhD in sociology. I was fascinated by how a lot of the educational approaches seem to be fear-based, like showing people's slides of terrible looking STDs, which is what we called them at the time.

And everyone was like, oh my God, I'm never having sex again. And then you run into the person Monday morning and they're like, yeah, I totally got drunk Saturday night and had sex again without a condom. And I was scared at the whole time and the next day and it wasn't even that enjoyable. So I was like, these approaches clearly are not working. What a parallels with the DARE program. Yes, oh my gosh, I loved that. I was part of that. I think it was the versions, or was it sad? Students against drunk driving, I think is the one I'm thinking of. Yeah, it was like the treasure of that in high school.

Okay. It was a goody-touchew. Yeah, but those fear-based approaches, I do feel like there's probably a handful of kids and young adults who will like, freeze and not do those things, but they're still not giving them skills and how to do the things. Like that's what we need. We need skills and how to negotiate difficult situations with other humans. How to negotiate our needs and wants. How to, what do we do with the nuances of wanting to be liked by others or feeling rejected or liking the attraction from a young woman and I'm making out with a guy and I was like, oh my God, this feels amazing and this feels exciting.

But I don't necessarily want to have sex because then I could get pregnant or I could get an STD's and I don't know if there's condoms here and I don't know him well enough. Sully, how do we negotiate the complexity of all of these things and I still want him to like me and I don't want him to get mad at me and I don't know what to do and we're never taught those things and frankly it's the same general idea of what we're not taught how to be in marriage or long-term relationships. When your needs are mismatched and you're afraid of like upsetting the other person or feeling too vulnerable or rocking the boat when things are good enough or you don't have the band with or the skills so you just keep brushing it under the rug and brushing it under the rug and then you've got a massive lump in the middle of your living room at some point.

Yeah, yeah. I took the sociology of relationships in marriage when I was in college and I still think about that class today because it was everything, it was so clinical and database without any of the stuff you just talked about and what almost everyone that took the class thought it was gonna be was all the stuff you just had. We had to learn to be in a relationship. Yeah, I mean that's like people want that. Cause it is hard and it's something that we all desire, right? To have intimacy and love and sex in our lives but there's a lot of gray area, especially when you're young and first stepping into this new arena of life, some guidance would be great.

What would you tell all those young people? I mean, I do tell them. I mean, everything I'm saying here is what I tell them and I just normalize. I think particularly the younger generations today need to hear that it's normal to feel awkward and uncomfortable. It doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. Doesn't mean you have an anxiety disorder, you might, but it doesn't mean you do or that you're having trouble fitting in or that you have desires and you don't know what to do with them or what I started hearing maybe about eight years ago or something from some young women going off to college and doing some sex education for them.

And they asked, how do I know what I like? So, and I was like, right, if you've been taught fear messages and you're also taught that you don't wanna make mistakes, how would you possibly know what you like? So, I do say, I was like, find a context that feels, first of all, explore your own body through masturbation, especially for young women who might not have done that in the way most young men do. But... Somewhere on that shelf is a pleasure for one. It's a book I stumbled onto when I was in college. Is that Betty Dodson? I believe so, it's like on just masturbation and being okay with it, especially for women.

And it was, I found it to be a eye opening read, but man, when I gave that to a couple of friends, female friends who were in my life, I mean, it was transformative for them. Yeah, really wonderful book if anybody's looking for something like that. I love that you played that role from a young age. So lovely, helping women blossom in their sexuality on their own. That's lovely. Yeah, so what was my point? My point was, yeah, one of the things with younger generations that I hear the same thing when they're sort of talking about which college to go to or which career to choose. I see, we can't know.

The only way we know is through trial and error because they feel, they seem to feel particularly bad if they mess up in some way or made the bad choice. It is the only way we could do life is through trial and error. Now, gather the information you can or talk to some folks, but you gotta just jump out there and take risks. And then start to learn what we call resilience is then if something's not quite writers and working for you, how do you bounce back? And then that's how you build those skills over time to learn and grow and evolve. We're not supposed to get it right the first time. That'd be impossible.

Based on we hardly know anything about ourselves and we haven't experienced the world hardly at all. Gotta get out there and experience it. And so it's the same with sexual experimentation and what you like or not like. It's finding somebody who's trustworthy and kind and caring and isn't pushing boundaries and cares about consent and cares about your wellbeing and that you can create spaces together that you can learn and grow in that way. That's, and then know that then 10 years later, something if you get pregnant, it's gonna change. Post-kids, it's gonna change. Perry Menopause, menopause, just especially for women, but also for men going through different stages of life and shifts in hormones, diseases, anti-depressant medications, all sorts of things will change how we feel in our bodies and how our relationship to desire pleasure, arousal, orgasm, et cetera.

And but the basic skills we need is the willingness to be vulnerable and have the hard conversations. Yeah, yeah. The post-sex debrief can be a real useful tool as well. I think that's especially free. But honest, yeah. Right. I mean, I think for young people, I have no idea if this is common or not, but a, yeah, being with somebody and maybe not immediately afterwards, but especially when you're first figuring these things out, having a conversation like what? And especially that person who initiates the conversation, like what worked for you, what didn't? And then try to get down to the, oh, well, you had mentioned X, Y, and Z and thought that would be good and somehow it wasn't.

Why wasn't it? Yeah. And then to that ability to have such hard, uncomfortable conversations about things that we want to feel competent in and that we are at our most vulnerable when we're literally naked and trying sexual things, we want to feel good at it. And then we don't want to give bad news to someone else or make them feel bad, but being able to be in conversations like that and do it, listen, deeply learn and be kind to each other. And that is a skill for a lifetime. That's right. And most people do not have that. And it's never modeled for us. And then we try it out when we're younger sometimes and it goes awry because we don't know what we're doing but the other person's very sensitive or vice versa.

And then folks just keep burying things under the rug. So being able to do that is amazing. Right, right afterwards might not be the best time. I like the next morning, carve out a little time and be really kind in your approach in that like that was fun last night. So we tried some new things. I'd love to know if you feel like it worked. It didn't work. You didn't seem to love this thing, which is like, no problem with me. I just want to learn more and know why. I just want you to feel good. Right, right. That would be amazing. And yes, when you're not literally naked, it can make it easier easier to be figuratively naked and vulnerable.

The now you mentioned at the beginning how AI and social media are changing this intimacy landscape. Let's dig a little deeper there. So we think what is as we have more of our relationships with people and interactions with people online and then add in with AI chatbots, using chat GPT as a therapist, replica, other things for AI companions and such. But even at just a basic level, even if you're not even talking about somebody wanting an AI boyfriend or girlfriend, just at the basic level of how it's integrating into people's lives and particularly younger generations, college students, high school students using it for so much.

What that means is that we are having less and less time actually interacting with other humans in all of those awkward interactions that we have with other humans. And all of those interactions are how we build skills and how to be with other humans. How do we learn skills to listen, to make eye contact, to be patient with others that are maybe talking slower than we wish or are in our way as we're driving or even in a grocery line somewhere instead of having a grocery sent to you, you're in a grocery line, you gotta practice patience. And maybe the cashier is a little slower, somebody in front of you, forgot an item and goes back.

All of those things build a capacity and a resilience around the awkwardness and discomfort of what we have to be around other humans. And as we are losing those skills and finding AI so agreeable and so fun and pleasant and supportive and immediately helpful and it is all about us, we will lose the capacity to be tolerant and patient with other humans. I feel like I saw it as soon as the world started opening up some after COVID times, people were fricking pain in the ass. I was less patient, so they seemed like a pain in the ass to me. But they were, I mean, the way people were driving, the way people were rude with each other, we had lost in that time period.

We've seen it in action in just the past six years, how when we isolate and we are not out interacting with others, we lose that patience and that tolerance. And what I fear is, we will continually seek out interactions that are based around ease and comfort. Sure. And one of the things with the AI chatbots is they are, they usually, no matter what information you give them, especially if it's around a personal issue, they're gonna place you as the hero of the story and you were right and you are correct and you are brilliant and you are amazing. And there might be some helpful bits of information in there.

I don't wanna dismiss that part of it. But underneath that, it is removing friction that comes with natural human to human communication. I mean, I would think naturally, if I said something that maybe didn't come out the way I intended, it offends you in a certain way, my immediate thought is, okay, I need to explain what I actually meant by that to bring this back because that's just gonna happen with human communication and it would be really easy to lose those skills if you were talking to AI all the time. Yes, and that is the growing research based around this is showing that. And that, so a couple of different things.

I mean, one, so I read a recent research study that looked at a decent sized group of folks who were already part of a group online for folks who had AI relationships and they did a research study on them. And they found that whether the AI interactions, relationships were more beneficial or more harmful, really was reflective of what the people came in with. Did the folks come in with enough sort of social skills or sense of self that then they were able to bolster themselves through interactions with AI and learn actually some communication skills or asking questions like, I'm stuck in this situation with a friend.

How do I talk through this? What do I do? Which I think is like AI at its best can help us be better humans and happier humans. But for the folks who came in below a certain skill level or were already trying to avoid other humans, it just amplified all of that and pushed them more in that direction. So, yeah. And I think, I mean, there's so many components of this that have been building over the past 20, 25 years, particularly the past 15 years. But the less tolerance that we have with boredom, you know, the less able we are to just stay present. Like I said, that organic time with each other that we're not filling it with other things, that we can just get to know each other or let the day flow around it without filling it in with our phones.

And I true that one of the things that makes me saddest around this is that I think, I fear that a decent percentage of younger populations could end up thinking that regular humans aren't worth it, that they're just not worth it. And then they can get their needs met in a way that they feel like is fulfilling enough and then they're not taking risks. So that's the main thing I encourage younger generations is about taking risks, taking risks, calculated risks, but to push yourself out of your comfort zone. And what you say, what you ask, the things that you try, I mean, I'm not talking about drugs and alcohol.

Emotional risks, vulnerability risks. Those things actually numb, right? Those things actually numb us and then make it easier. But yeah, those emotional risks. So the more interactions we have with AI in general, reduce opportunities to be able to take those risks with other humans, fulfill us in other ways and yeah, make us less tolerant. And what is happening with young people today? Because you mentioned that intimate sex is on a downward trend. Maybe adventurous sex is staying even or even increasing. What are you, what are you seeing there on the broad scope? This episode of The Nick Stanley Show is brought to you by Zappier.

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This just, there was a great article by Kate Julian in the Atlantic that came out, gosh, I forget what you're saying, maybe 2019, 2018, I think. And it was the first time somebody, or that I had seen put the term, are we in a sex recession? And that was the first time looking at Gen Z and that they were, every other generation usually is going up in their age of sex and the amount of sex that they're having with other people. And this was the first time that we saw a decline. And here we are eight years later and we're continuing to see that same trend. And I think it's getting worse. And the thing is, I think there's lots of reasons for it, but fundamentally like what I said, I feel like it's a fear of vulnerability and risk taking that in the long run, it does not make people happy.

We get stuck in our comfort zones and then you get stuck in anxiety and depression. So that seems to be continuing, yeah, to show up that way. The reason I said about more adventurous sex is just because we have more, there's so much more social media around BDSM and Kink and polyamory and such that I think people, younger generations, are exposed to all different ways to be in relationships and to experience sexual connection, which I think is great. It's not necessarily going hand in hand with good communication skills and that vulnerability piece. So, which is then the scary pieces, then it shows that more young men think they're supposed to strangle and choke young women in sexual relationships.

And there's been some terrible court cases around that. And just growing sort of like head trauma type stuff for young women, it's some young women in college. I saw some statistics about that because of then choking becoming a normal part of sexual interactions. What role does online porn play in all of that? Because I have seen stuff on and that's how many kids try to educate themselves around sex these days, especially if they don't have role models, whether it's their parents or other adults who know a little bit more about the topic, they just don't have people in their lives that are teaching them in a positive way.

How does that play out? So I think even for, and I feel like this has not changed that much with the last few generations, but even if you get great comprehensive sex education, what we consider really good and big picture, what's missing is often this, right? It's kind of clinical and detached often. What we're missed is this embodied real sense of what it is to be in complicated, nuanced sexual interactions with another human who may or may not have the same needs as you, who may or may not have communication skills or not. And so what porn provides really easily free and a fingertips is a visceral sense of what sex is like.

And so I think adults, teachers can lecture till we are blue on our face that porn isn't real, but it is real people doing real sexual things that when you look at it, you can't not, remember looking at it, it's burned into your brain and your body reacts to it. So that to me ends up being one of the biggest forms of sex education because it's so visual and visceral and real and erotic in a way that sex education is so detached from that embodied sense. So yeah, and then porn will sometimes direct you down if you like a certain genre, it'll get more and more hardcore sometimes, just like the rabbit holes on YouTube with any topics that you're in or conspiracy theories, et cetera.

So the danger with that is one thinking that's what's normal and that's what everybody wants. Also, I mean, in general, right, there's not a whole lot of consent conversations in porn or condoms being used or anything. Like everybody is easily turned on and easily orgasmic and all women want come on their faces and double penetration, whatever. So, and the choking piece, that seems, that's the best I've found of what seems to be pointing down that path is the choking piece. I mean, there's certainly manosphere guys like Andrew Tate who has spoken about that and written about that and in detail in his war room, et cetera.

So with his followers, I don't know that that that's enough to break overall into mainstream, but it seems to be a combination of factors. And I mean, I've heard this from some gill men, they actually think they're like, oh, this is what we're supposed to do, which is terrifying. Like it's not, they're not intentionally trying to dominate or control. And then the young woman's like, I guess this is what we do, I guess I'm supposed to like this. What I think it gets at some of the things that you have this really powerful piece online, anybody can see it on your website or on YouTube and we'll get all that information at the end.

But it was called sex consent and gender. And I thought there were so many important issues. I mean, we could spend two hours talking about just that piece that you wrote and that experience that you had. But one of the things that I took away from it, and we'll let you tell the story momentarily here, is that there are these huge sociological forces that we ingest by osmosis, just by being in our society. And there were certain gender norms and sexual norms in the 80s and then in the 90s and in the 2000s and they do change over time. But whether we're talking about whether they're norms and porn or whatever came before that, they do influence people without them even being aware of it.

And you putting a name to it is really important. And I think especially for young people, just so they can at least be aware how they're being influenced by these big forces. With that said, let's transition to that talk because it really like hit me hard when I watched it. It's a very, it's emotional. It's, I found it very uplifting. And positive even talking about a less than ideal to put it mildly, a less than ideal situation. But I just, I love the way you processed it and dealt with it. And so let's, yeah, if we could talk about that for a second. Yeah. So this was actually 10 years ago, but I think that video is certainly not lost its relevance.

So I was asked to speak at a story telling event called The New Narrative about some sort of conflict I had experienced around communication. So I picked sexual communication and what had happened the previous, maybe about six months earlier or so, I had met a guy online and we'd been messaging. He lived about four hours away. Just had a lot of fun, had some at the time. We, you know, Zoom wasn't really a thing. We had some Skype conversations. We were getting to know each other and it was really enjoyable. So we came to visit and he was staying in a hotel and we went out to eat and we had, because I practiced what I preach, we had conversations about sort of expectations and it turned out that he, I don't, you know, I don't like to have sex the first time I meet somebody.

I like to do some sexual things and tap into sexual chemistry, but sexual intercourse. I like to know somebody a little better and I had voiced that. And then it turned out he said that he didn't like using condoms. And I was like, well, I'm not on the pill and I'm a sexual health educator. So fast not gonna work right now, but we could do other things and we both agreed. Yes, we'll do other things. We had some drinks, we had food, came back to my place and we were like playing around and hooking up and laughing and having a good time. And there was a couple of times that his, like his penis was like near my vagina.

And I was like, we, you remember what I said, right? And he's like, no worries, no worries, like we're good here. And then at one point I realized that he, I could feel him inside me, but both his hands were out and they were on both sides of my hips. And I realized, I was like, oh my God, like he's inside of me. And so I pushed off of him and I was, and I'm really happy I had to wear with all to stop it. And then I said, you know, what the fuck are you doing? I said, no, like how I couldn't have more detailed said, no, I did not want that and you just did it. And there's no condom on like the whole thing.

And he said, oh, I'm sorry, it just slipped, et cetera. And then he started putting his clothes on. I'm like, where are you going? And he's like, I'm, I'm leaving, I'm going to my hotel. And I said, no, you're gonna, you're gonna talk about this and you're actually gonna explain what you did here. And that to me is just came from I think years of being in the sex educator field and be like, I did not do anything wrong here. You did, that's not okay. You're going to own up to it. So I tell that story in the talk and then as a sociologist and I kind of deconstruct what was going on. And then I started reflecting like though I just had, you know, decades leading up this was, I was, you know, this was maybe 11 years ago.

This happened. So I would have been 42 at the time. But in my 40s and my 30s and my 20s, I had multiple experiences over and over again of men just pushing, pushing boundaries, pushing boundaries and me saying, hey, I love what we're doing. Let's not do that or I'm not ready for that. And they push and push and push. And I was like, oh my God, this has just happened forever. What's like, what's going on here? And so looking at that from, you know, what men assume that women say no, but don't really mean it or they're trying to be good girls or they really want it or, you know, they want the same thing the men want.

The men can read our minds. And then men just learning over time that, you know, if they push enough, they'll often get what they want. And then assume that, oh, she really did want that and liked that. And after this video came out, my God, the number of women, I'm not talking about women like I went to high school with, like just from all stages of my life wrote to me. And they were like, I, this makes me want to cry. They're like, I am crying as I write this. I have never seen my, I have had so many experiences of this and I always blame to myself. I blame myself that I didn't speak up or that I somehow was wrong or let him along, even though I had said no or didn't want it.

And then this is a piece that to me was really powerful. The men that wrote to me and or like it was used in some college classes with fraternity men. And guys were like, oh, oh, this is what you've meant all along. Like we knew we weren't rapists, but this thing, oh yeah, we do this thing. Like we push and nudge all the time. And they didn't realize what they were mostly doing. This is just wearing women down, making women feel bad, making women give in and do something that they actually don't want to do that they feel shitty about the next day. Even if there is some pleasure mixed in, it wasn't intentionally chosen and consented to.

So does that get to the heart of what you were wanting to share? I haven't talked about this in a little while. So I was trying to. Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of. What was resonated with you. There are a lot of different levels to it. One, I thought it was amazing that in the moment, you said, no, we're going to talk about this right now. That. And the audience of women went, I was in a room of like 150, 200 people at this story telling me and they surprised me. Like I actually wanted to cry in that moment because they were just like, they started applauding and I was like, oh, I didn't anticipate that.

I also thought your description afterwards, where he said he was not a bad person and was someone that didn't want to put a woman in a situation where she was going to do something she didn't want to do. And you learned this through some communication with him. We met at a coffee shop the next afternoon. Yeah, I met him for like an hour to like give him space to talk and to his credit, he had done some reflection and shared. Yeah. And I just, I thought that was really powerful because it got into the messy nature of all of this. I mean, it would be wonderful if it was really, all of sex was just really simple and it could, and there weren't all these layers of complexity to it.

And I thought you really, you like dove into the messy part of it, which was that you recognized it was not his intention to be harmful, even though he had done something that you didn't want him to do sexually and felt violated by that. And that's, that's just really difficult to talk about. And you really are practicing what you preach because I just thought, damn, now that's being vulnerable and putting yourself out there to just go in front of a room, first of all, and tell the story. And then to put it up online is like the next level. And so lots of thoughts there, but I was, I just kudos to you for talking about it because that has clearly positively affected many, many people as a result of sharing all that.

Thank you. It's interesting. I'm thinking about it being 10 years ago in where we are in society compared to where we are now. And I think because as a society, we've become more divisive. Men and women seem to dislike each other more and blame each other more for stuff. Or at least that's what gets the clicks and shares on social media and headlines. I think to hear you reflect it back, which thank you, I appreciate that, that level of nuanced, I would say, compassion and mindfulness and looking at it sociologically. Because my intent with the talk is like, we talk about these things and like, OK, men are rapists and bad and evil.

How is that helpful? Because many of these men are quote-unquote good men. And they actually don't want to be harming women. There is just a big misunderstanding in the middle. And I want to bridge that gap and that gap in meaning and understanding so that we can actually apply this and communicate better and not be doing this type of harm to women specifically. I, boy, do we need that even more in today's world is what I would say. Which is crazy that I was like, oh, I hadn't, like I said, I hadn't reflected on this in a while. We have moved in the opposite direction. I would say, maybe I need to pull some clips and post that on social media and get that being followed again.

I think it would, it's absolutely relevant to today. And I also, something that it memories that it spurred for me was conversations with other male friends. And I had had a conversation with one young woman who I actually tried to communicate about sex before it happened. And she did not want that. She actually said I would prefer if it just happens. Which is actually the words that he used in your situation. And it just happened. Right. And that, I... Right. Like, mixed signals. How do you know what's going on in any situation? Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I don't want to shame where anybody's coming from or what their desires are.

But those are difficult waters to navigate, especially when you are in your just starting out on your sexual journey. Right. Yeah. And so, I mean, a couple of things in there. One, like in my case, in my story, I was like, I could not have communicated more clearly and checked in with you along the way. And I'm clearly not a woman who's just is embarrassed to talk about these things or won't talk about my pleasure. And he goes, that is clearly not me. Like, that's all you, if that was your take on it. But in general, right. Because we're not, I mean, so many young women are still and young men, but young women in this case are very uncomfortable talking about their needs or their wants and their bodies.

Because it feel we've been taught that that's shameful. Right. That's embarrassing. We could get judged or slut-shamed for that. All of that. It's still massive for young women today. So, right. And I've talked to women that they're like, yeah. He asked what I wanted or he asked permission to kiss. And I was like, don't do that. Don't be a pussy. Just do it. Like, we don't need to talk about this. And I was like, do you know how much harm you're doing by saying that? And what it is, is her own unwillingness and inability to be vulnerable in that moment, which then brings me back to my main theme under all of this, is a willingness to be awkward and uncomfortable and building skills and resilience around that with other humans in our most intimate settings.

So, but I would say for young people, you cannot read someone else's mind. You cannot assume what they want. Half the time people don't even know what they want themselves. But in particular, you can't. And if somewhat, if you ask, because I've worked with some young men around this, they're like, I have asked women and then they're like, embarrassed or uncomfortable or they don't want to answer my question. And I said, so here, try saying this. I was like, if you're comfortable doing this, then say, I'm so sorry I don't make you, I don't want to make you uncomfortable. But I really want to make sure you're doing everything you want to do.

And I want to make sure this feels good for you. And often women are like, have never heard that before. Right. And then you could slowly be like, OK, I'm just going to touch your inner thigh a little bit. Does that feel good? Do you like this? What about this? And if you like this person, it's worth investing some time in getting to know them. And then you're also teaching them skills and communication, awkward, uncomfortable, but important communication. Yeah. I had a conversation once with my friend Kurt or both parents. We were discussing how to discuss some of these more delicate issues with our kids.

And and some of these same true lines came up just in terms of does does sexual intimacy really always work like that where you can just communicate every step of the way. And I remember he said, yeah, but what if it did? And I just, wow, what a wonderful perspective. Like, why can't it work like that? Because it is, it's such a, you're talking about such a minor discomfort. If we have a conversation that's awkward for both of us and, oh, my gosh, I don't like to talk about this stuff. It makes me feel weird. Those are all blips. I mean, they're it's so minor. It's so nothing. And then compared to the big picture of the harm you could do.

Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And I can say especially for the men because there is a underlying dynamic. There were usually that man can overpower that woman physically. And I feel like that is a dynamic that's often under appreciated what that would feel like. And so you don't want to cross a line that the other person does not want crossed. And it's. Yeah. And I, I, what you, I think you tap into many important things there, but also that sense of if a woman has ever been overpowered by a man, if she's in a situation like that, she will, she'll just freeze, you know, often in those moments. Or if I mean, this is the whole right, that big thing a couple years ago for women's in the woods, would she rather a random bear or a random man show up?

We were like the bear because I know random men are dangerous and maybe the barrel just sniff me and leave me alone. But it's that piece of that so many women that we, from a young age, we move through the world of men saying negative things to us, harassing us, giving us a hard time or being physically pushed around or just knowing that they could because they're physically bigger. Like that, that just sort of innate fear that women carry because we are the smaller of the species overall can really kick in in a sexual situation and how it shows up often isn't it could be fighting or like I did, but it often shows up as, you know, we're running away but it also shows up as freezing.

It's just a, it's a response that's a very normal flight, flight, freeze or fawn where then you're, you know, trying to make everything okay. Those can be really normal, but you can't guess that in a situation of what's going on. Again, need to build a talk. I, I have to note a couple of men over the years who are complete playboys. They are having, you know, when Tinder first came out, I knew this guy and he was just, he's like, oh, I'm almost every night, I'm meeting a new woman out, whatever. I'm like, how many of them are you hooking up with or doing stuff with? He goes, well, probably one in every three, he's like, I'm like, not interested.

He goes in after 30 minutes. I was like, this was great. I'll pay for the bill. We're good. Just not feeling it. But then the other ones, but he was so, and I know this because I've been dealt with him, but did not have intercourse with him. So I know personally what he was like, he was the most caring, consensual guy. He's like, I never want to do anything that you don't want to do. And he meant it. He was so like, is this okay? What about this? Do you want this? I was like, I don't want that. And he's like, fine. Never came back to that thing then. And what I rose is that gave me such a sense of freedom and safety to just enjoy the sexual situation.

And I was like, dude, I was like, this is brilliant because you genuinely mean it. He goes, I do, but I was like, but you'll get so many more women this way. And he goes, yeah, I do. And I was like, because that's what feels great to us. And he's not, he's not playing us. And he's actually not trying to manipulate it. He genuinely, he goes, I'm just so happy to have this beautiful woman in front of me that wants to share this experience that you want to watch a woman blossom in front of you like that. But you can't be, you know, it can't be a game you're playing. Right. Well, I think that's a wonderful message for young men, young women as well, but especially for the men who are not encouraged by society to ask a whole lot of questions and be really expressive.

Yeah. That these are that, that one, I mean, yes, women will respond really positively to all of that. And if you can communicate in the awkwardness and delicacy of a sexual situation, well, you are going to have incredible communication skills at in work, in life, in whatever you are doing and all of that, um, loads really well for you. When you were, when you were mentioning that, gosh, I, um, a, another comedian popped into my head, Richard Pryor in the, in the sixties has, he has a bit on gender roles and he wouldn't have called it that at that time. Um, but I remember he said, he said when he said, when you're lying in bed with a woman after sex, he said, what starts to go through my head, uh, is, is like, gosh, was that, was that, was that good for you?

Did you, did you enjoy that? Did you like that? Uh, did you, did you come? He's like, and then I remember I'm much a man. I don't give a damn if you come or not. I'm much a man. He had a whole song about it. He did. He did. And it, it continues from there a little bit. Um, but I like it, this stuff has been a challenge for, for men and for women and, and if you're, uh, and not just had a sexual relationships, I mean, it's been a challenge for, for so long. And so just, I mean, just want to say I really appreciate all that you're, um, doing to help people communicate and have more intimate relationships in their lives.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Are we wrapping up here? You know, we, that did, that did feel like a wrap up. I know it did. I was like, wait, are we closing? I, I, I, I wasn't my intention. Um, yeah, I just, it just felt natural to express that right there. Um, let's see. A couple of other things I wanted to, to touch on your, your book. Um, let's, let's tell everybody the name of that book, what's the heart of it and, and for anyone that might be interested on that. Yeah. It's called from madness to mindfulness reinventing sex for women. Yeah. It was published to a few years back a little before the pandemic, uh, still very relevant today at the core of it is, uh, this, what I'm calling the madness part of it is for so many women who are adults and in longterm relationships who don't can't orgasm easily or don't feel desire or are embarrassed or ashamed to ask for what they want.

Everything we've been talking about here, basically, but so many women feel that they are broken or that there's something wrong with them in some way. And that's what I'm calling the madness because I then outline for them various research studies that are super fascinating. But all these ways that I was like, of course you ended up here because everything you've learned and experienced growing up was really negative about these topics or shaming your body or your needs or your wants or faking orgasm or not being taught to masturbate all of these things. And then you're an adult and a longterm relationship or married and then you're supposed to flip a switch and suddenly be passionate and open and loving and know how to work on all the complications around these topics as your body and relationship grows and changes.

And I said, it's not, it's not you. You're not broken. However, we've been taught to be so detached from our body. So I teach mindfulness skills, embodied mindfulness about how to be present with your emotions and your patterns and your bodily sensations and your belief systems and how all of this was inherited from society and programmed into you and how to slowly pull the pieces apart from that and then get to the core of who do you want to be and how do you want to act and express yourself that feels authentic to you. So teaching the vulnerability, the mindfulness skills and communication skills and various coaching skills.

So, and then I have chapters around desire and body image and conflicts and relationships and then tons and then also the next generation of women. How do we stop passing these messages on to younger women and then a review of all the different coaching practices I went through. So it targets women, particularly age 20 to 50 or so. In that I don't talk about menopause or perimenopause and like those hormonal shifts. It's more midlife, although that's changing. But all of the mindfulness skills and the coaching skills are relevant for everybody. All ages, all genders. I've had men sit down and read the book and then go to their wives and like going through the research, the way, is this true?

Did this happen to you? Do you believe this in the wives? They're like, yes, yes, yes. And the guys are like mind blown. Like I didn't know you experienced these things or were taught these things or carried this. This is why you carry shame or this is why it's hard to have conversations. So I think obviously I think it could be helpful for everybody because we still don't talk about these things enough. And then and then what do we do about it? How do we how do we grow together instead of grow apart? Yeah. Yeah. Why did you pick the word madness? Because it was a nice alliteration. At the time I was brainstorming on it.

I mean, I've worked on this book for a long time. I think I came up with that title in maybe 2017. And it was it was a little bit of a play on the idea. It wasn't meant to be about hysteria. I referenced that in it, but like the hysteria of the 1800s that women who like had too much desire or not enough desire or heading side, like everything went back to their uterus, you know, his history, our uterus. And so it was a little play on terms of play on words about that and that madness. But it to me, the madness was we we feel like we're banging our heads against the wall because we've been taught all this shit and then we're supposed to be a certain way and then we're trying and we don't know how to be that way.

And then we're blaming ourselves. And that was like the, you know, you just keep doing the same thing over again. And it's not working. That's because we're not getting to the fundamental belief systems and emotions that need to change to be able to be happier. So that's that's kind of where it came from. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Well, how did it how did it sit with you? Oh, no, I liked the title. And then when I started to look at the book, I thought I thought it was just provocative. I mean, thinking of madness, I mean, it really is about, yeah, why can't I be the way I think I should be and frustration with that and how to heal that and shame and shame and embarrassment and self doubt around it.

Yeah. And I don't know that there is one word that would encapsulate all of that. And I also thought it was a great title. So they, so yeah, I was just curious on that. I did want to ask about Perry Minipause because I feel like it does not get the attention that that topic deserves. So let's let's take a moment. It has in just the past two, two and a half years, like, menopause is having its heyday. It's become a very hot topic pun intended. But Perry menopause is still not well understood. And for women, Perry menopause can start in their late 30s sometimes and early 40s. And what it is is that your body is starting is moving through a time period till you are no longer ovulating and you're no longer fertile.

And what that primarily has is a drop in estrogen and that in inconsistent ways like versus like our menstrual cycle has very consistent ways that hormones and the neurochemicals move through us so that we ovulate and then we're fertile and we can get pregnant, we can have babies and all of that as our body starting to our reproductive system is starting to shut down. So it can be like a 10 year time period that that happens. And that's what Perry menopause is. The official definition of menopause, which I think is insane, is that you have not had a peer of age and you have not had a period in the past year.

Like that's when you officially hit menopause. Okay. So it really is just like one day and then your menopausal or post menopausal, like we have terrible terms around it. But all of that that perimenopause is all of those shifts and changes that your period can get shorter, your period can get longer. You can bleed every day for 30 days, your period gets heavier. And then there's so many because we have so many tissues in our body that are reactive to estrogen, those drops have kind of massive changes in our bodies. And this is the stuff I think of that is only starting to get talked about. Something called frozen shoulder that you can't move your shoulder and joint pains and like itchiness in weird areas and the hot flashes, which is a weird, I think a hypothalamus shift and was talking to a client recently, she goes, I had the worst hot flash the other day.

She goes, it literally felt like every follicle on my head was on fire and I wanted to rip my hair out. So the body is just doing really weird unpredictable things, impacts sleep and then there's a lot of mood changes, much more irritable, which you're not sleeping and you're feeling shitty anyway. Brain fog is a big one that's been coming up more and I feel so for so many women, you're hitting your 40s, your early 50s and you're like, I'm in my heyday now, like I am confident, I'm making good money, kids are getting out of the house, I know myself, I'm in a good relationship, we're traveling, like this is amazing and then all of a sudden it's like the rug is pulled out from under you and everything goes haywire and so you can not remember words and feel really fuzzy-brained and it can have an impact on self-esteem and self-worth.

Weight gain, that's not explained and how you used to lose weight isn't working anymore. Yeah, it's all over the freaking mouth. I've a list that I share with some women's groups that I work with, the 30 different things. Yeah, right. And it's all over the map. What is a broad range of symptoms and that drop in estrogen, my understanding of it is it can also really affect sexual desire and a host of other things. Yeah, and that's, yeah, the one big piece that I missed as relevant here in particular is that with those drops, women have less blood flow to the genitals, so which creates natural lubrication and like a like a plumpness in the tissues there.

And so basically the tissues are kind of drying out and so intercourse, any sort of penetration can really hurt. We need a lot of lube and good lube and a lot of warm up to just get the body going and so pain during intercourse is really common. And that's really shitty because once you start to anticipate pain in intercourse and penetration, like your body's going to tense up as it should because you don't want that pain and then all of that can make it worse. And I've just talked to so many women and they're like, I feel bad. I don't want to tell them it hurts and he's enjoying it. And I was like, oh boy, that is a downward spiral.

You're going to be stuck in there. And then usually the men when they find out are horrified because they don't want her to be in pain. Right. So nobody else would do with it. So yeah, so it could be less desire, less arousal and then orgasms can be harder to experience. So yeah, reduction and pleasure. So it really is talking about it thinking outside the box. I really encourage couples to talk about these like you're a couple in it like, you know, your sexual lives are you as a couple and as a team. And if one thing has drastically changed for one person's body, that means both of you need to drastically change and how you're showing up in that situation, how you're being creative, what you're trying, what you're doing, what toys, what lube, how you slow things down, how you change positions, how you, yeah, you switch things up.

Yeah, my understanding from talking a little bit to a doctor on the show, we got on to this topic a little bit and he was talking about the all these benefits around hormone replacement therapy. And then it's very, there's very little coverage of it during medical school. And so it's not super well understood. And then there was a study back in the 70s, if I'm forgiving this wrong, early 2000s, it was like 2003 was that study. That thought there was an association with cancer and it has since been determined that that was incorrect. But that's one of those things that gets into the zeitgeist, nobody wants cancer, but it can be very beneficial, especially for women as they as they go through this.

If you find yourself guessing at your kids college odds, know that it doesn't have to be that way. There's a website, you pick a college, any four year college in the country, type in your students GPA and their SAT or ACT score, and you get to see their odds built from that college's own published admissions data, change the score, watch the results change. You can look up any high school in the country as well to see their results at getting kids into the UCs. It's free. It's called reach. And you can get there at www.highschoolreach.com. Yeah, there was a New York Times article that came out, I believe in 2023 because it was 20 years.

And they said this research isn't right. There can be, there can be some connections for people with high risk already have had breast cancer. It could be you go on H hormone replacement therapy, HRT, it can exacerbate that and increase your risk in general for women though. No, there actually was no connections and the amount that it for many women will improve quality of life is massive, let alone then because one of the things we lose when we lose estrogen is bone density. And so women really are much more likely to have osteoporosis or if they fall to break a bone as they're aging. And there's also heart protective health also of estrogen and why in general women have fewer heart attacks than men or like at younger ages because estrogen is protective for us.

So there's some very important things connected to health and well being. And right, but you have this whole, you know, couple of generation or one or two generations of doctors that haven't learned about this and everybody's learned the opposite. So the only thing that concerns me is that, right, anything that's like a magic pill and that suddenly is like, this is the panacea. And so the pendulum literally within a year completely swung to the other side of like, everybody, all women should be this all women should be on this by age 40 and this solves all your problems. And that's not good either.

Right. I actually have a good friend who because we've been talking about perimenopause and all sorts of stuff more and like, especially in the circles I'm in and in Southern California. And she was at work and she kept being people. She's like, do this perimenopause things really like I am just constantly bloated and I have some pain and do whatever. No turned out she had cervical cancer. And like stage three and it was very, but because everything was being blamed on perimenopause, right? That's what happens when the pendulum swings to the other side that you're like, Oh, all of this is this.

And it's like, well, let's not lose sight of all these other health concerns that we could have. And right, it depends on the woman and the dosing and everything like that. So, but they're for many women, especially hot flashes. That's the really big one. And that for women that are really having disruptive hot flashes, the HRT is really helpful for that. And then you could sleep through the night and you're not constantly sweating through stuff or folks I know, like women, you know, CEOs and they're in front of a whole board meeting or whatever. And they're like, boom, hot flash just came in. I was like, what are you going to do?

They're like, yeah, I just wear layers and I just take it off and I block my face and I just keep talking to it. It's really freaking hard because your body's doing like feels really out of whack in that moment. So to be able to stay focused hard. So it's hard shit women do today. Yes. Yes. That's my summary. Well, you even have a similar wavelength going with men and testosterone right now where there it is. Well, it will cure everything. And you have a and it is nuanced just like it is with anything medical and perimenopause where testosterone can be wonderful for people as I have learned from the medical community.

It is not my opinions here. When your testosterone is actually lower than it should be for your age and you need replacement, if you don't need it, it will make you feel awesome for a while, but it can have all these downsides to it as well because you didn't actually need it and now you're taking a what amounts to a minor steroid because you don't need it. So you're taking extra and it's just more complicated than it at first seems. But that seems like it's like an easy fix right now for men in their 40s and 50s no matter what's what's wrong. I was in a I was given a talk the one time to a small group and they were all CEOs and they said we heard that if one person is going on testosterone to help them and help their relationship or their sex like whatever the other person should also go on it.

And I was I think my facial expression gave away I was horrified in that moment because I was like so all you men that are trying this and feeling more virile and virile and energetic and and no doubt aggressive and opinionated and over confident as well. Then you want your wives to go on and not even knowing like where she is or what it's going to do to her body and there can be there can be some helpful aspects of testosterone for some women around desire seems to be the main thing. But boy are you like we don't understand the endocrine system that well still and you are you're playing with fire.

So I mean I like as a true holistic approach to things having everything on the table. But the way it's getting all these things are getting blown up in the media as like simple fixes that's when you know right you know there's something else more going on right and it's much more complicated than that and good to talk to a medical provider you trust because and not somebody who's just like making money off of this absolutely absolutely. There's a lot of that out there in the wellness world. So right and the thing I learned when I have had doctors on this show is that is how little I actually understand about how the human body works and I think I'm pretty well versed on it.

And as it turns out no you didn't do 10 years of medical training and so that's there's just so much so much you don't know and so you finding somebody you trust for the they are important decisions if we're going to get hormones involved. Yes and I would say that about anything that we're believing that's coming through wellness influencers online. My boyfriend is a cancer researcher and so I'll pull up this thing on Instagram. I'll be like so this I know part of this is based truth tell me about this. First of all he's horrified and second of all he's like no they completely oversimplified it this is how that works.

So yes you could logically say this but you cannot say this and this and this and this and this and then take this supplement to you know of cure your cancer or avoid that. So I would say everything around science and medicine is so much more complicated than almost everything we're reading online. Yeah yeah and that's a good disclaimer for influencers in in general it's not that there aren't good people online and people really know what they're doing because they're also trying to get their message out. It's just most influencers are really good at talking and being good looking and not necessarily what they are asserting to have an expertise in because yeah there's so many years.

They simplify things so they're like oh I understand this and that's the problem it's actually not. And that's how the human brain works and I think some of these people believe what they're doing and then I think some of them are just grifters. And then there's that. Yeah. Let's see your website for people that want to find you there where's the best places to find you online. Yeah and I have multiple different things. I mean my main hub for 20 years now has been my Dr. Jen's Den website so it's DRJENNS, D-E-N. If you type in any version of Dr. Jen's Den and sex it'll come up and tons of information and my TEDx talks, my book, a podcast I used to do, all sorts of things on there, lots of essays, interviews and such.

Last summer I referenced that I had launched the Center for Courageous Intimacy, so which is courageous-intimacy.com to explore more this idea of what it is to have the courage to have these missing conversations, these hard conversations and our dating relationships and how to build some skills around it. That's why I have some free worksheets on there for people that are dating or in relationships and that you don't even need to give your email address. I don't ask for it. I literally just want it to be a service for people to take out there. If you want to know how to, yeah, if you want to look at green flags or red flags in a dating situation and you're not sure with somebody you're dating or if you want to know how to have more meaningful conversations on a date night or how to talk about desire, desire differences or talk about pleasure.

I have such worksheets on there and people can just run with them. And then I started doing some local events in San Diego, an event called Intimacy Speak Easy where we actually get together in a Speak Easy, like hidden entrance and all. And I facilitate people having vulnerable conversations and building skills around these topics that we don't normally talk about. So I will be doing more of those in the future as well. Wow. I like the Speak Easy event. That sounds really fun. It sounds fun and useful and productive. Right. We're going to do this. Let's at least have some fun cocktails in hand and be in a beautiful setting.

So yeah. And Speak Easy with a secret entrance just sounds intriguing. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I went to one not that long ago that had a, it was like a regular bar and then there was a phone booth in there and you had to have the code and then go just say the code into the phone and suddenly the back of the phone booth opened up. Somebody took me there without telling me what was going to happen and I was like, you are so awesome. Yes. You didn't spoil the surprise. Yes. That's so nice. I mean, like surprise and delight. We don't have enough of that in our, I mean, yeah, in our everyday world. So I love that somebody surprised you with that.

That's awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time. Absolutely. And again, I know I already said it once. I'm going to say it again. I really appreciate the work you're doing and because you're not just telling people to be vulnerable. You are vulnerable with your own experiences. And I think that is the power of your work and why it reaches so many people. Thank you. I appreciate that. Your questions were fantastic in your, your presence and cleverness in a really great way. Like some of these questions, I was like, Oh, nobody's asked me this before. I love that. So thank you. I appreciate it.

Thank you. And to everybody out there, go out there and be courageous in your vulnerability. Have those hard conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, thank you, Dr. Jen. Thank you. Okay, everybody. Until next time, ask questions. Don't accept the status quo and be curious.